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Post by jisidro on May 25, 2018 12:29:56 GMT
Don't forget the objective. IMO Harbinger has access to to much healing. Not saying there an excess of healing on PoM just saying its effect is super-magnified by Martyrdom. LOL have you seen how much Reznik2 can heal? A D3 and D3+1 is hardly "too much" for an objective that might be in a place where you cant or dont want to get into, and an attachment you cant even take in some themes and which otherwise does very little for you. Not to mention the objective is probably getting popped for multiple reasons early on. The VoJ takes it to a total potential 3D3+1, or 3-4 Martyrs, on average. For 21pts + objective, Im hardly blown away. Plus, the VoJ cant heal itself and its taking D3 for each D3 it heals Harbie, and Harbie cannot Martyr the objective or VoJ. So two easy picking targets can quickly take you to D3+1 again, and youre forgoing Harmonius for it. I don't see where I wasn't clear... D3 for the objective isn't too much, D3+1 from the hierophant isn't too much, D3 from the BE isn't too much but when you think of all the available healing plus Harbinger's 10/11 focus plus Martyrdoom it is, IMO, too much.
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Post by paradox on May 25, 2018 12:36:45 GMT
LOL have you seen how much Reznik2 can heal? A D3 and D3+1 is hardly "too much" for an objective that might be in a place where you cant or dont want to get into, and an attachment you cant even take in some themes and which otherwise does very little for you. Not to mention the objective is probably getting popped for multiple reasons early on. The VoJ takes it to a total potential 3D3+1, or 3-4 Martyrs, on average. For 21pts + objective, Im hardly blown away. Plus, the VoJ cant heal itself and its taking D3 for each D3 it heals Harbie, and Harbie cannot Martyr the objective or VoJ. So two easy picking targets can quickly take you to D3+1 again, and youre forgoing Harmonius for it. I don't see where I wasn't clear... D3 for the objective isn't too much, D3+1 from the hierophant isn't too much, D3 from the BE isn't too much but when you think of all the available healing plus Harbinger's 10/11 focus plus Martyrdoom it is, IMO, too much. No, I got it. Im saying youre making a ridiculous overstatement, and explained why it was so.
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Post by dicebedamned on May 25, 2018 12:40:26 GMT
The fact that you can heal does not make Harvy immortal, nor OP. She has access to the same amount of healing as every other caster other than she has 4 more focus than most. So really we are looking at 4 heal, or 1 min and 1 max martyrdom...
Harby with Bastions will be good, but again not broken. Grevious Wounds is a thing and kills Harby lists dead. Whilst I am interested to try her in EI (Cinerator spam), I too agree that FM is where she shines because of the full pala boat.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on May 25, 2018 13:22:24 GMT
letstrypom.com/category/battle-reports/ most of the recent Dziekan's reports are with Harby in FM, so you may want to check them if you're interested in her. Her interactions with the Allegiants should definitely be looked into IMO. Or maybe just the Allegiants themselves (you know, 3pts and all )
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Post by jisidro on May 25, 2018 14:12:51 GMT
No, I got it. Im saying youre making a ridiculous overstatement, and explained why it was so. I didn't understand your explanation... Can you elaborate? The fact that you can heal does not make Harvy immortal, nor OP. She has access to the same amount of healing as every other caster other than she has 4 more focus than most. So really we are looking at 4 heal, or 1 min and 1 max martyrdom... Harby with Bastions will be good, but again not broken. Grevious Wounds is a thing and kills Harby lists dead. Whilst I am interested to try her in EI (Cinerator spam), I too agree that FM is where she shines because of the full pala boat. She has access to the same healing as the other casters but they don't have martyrdoom. She has an extra resource that gives her an option so strong that her spell list is usually forgotten when talking about her. As to grievous wounds... melee grievous wounds is hard to apply when her troops "ignore" free strikes, have extra threat and can have a hit buff. She doesn't lose martyrdoom if models have grievous... you can actually kill what you hit instead of asking for permission.
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on May 25, 2018 14:49:39 GMT
As to grievous wounds... melee grievous wounds is hard to apply when her troops "ignore" free strikes, have extra threat and can have a hit buff. She doesn't lose martyrdoom if models have grievous... you can actually kill what you hit instead of asking for permission. I'm not quite following sorry. What do you mean when you say Harby lists 'ignore free strikes', and also "she doesn't lose martyrdom if models have grievous". She hates seeing grievous wounds.
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Post by jisidro on May 25, 2018 15:32:43 GMT
As to grievous wounds... melee grievous wounds is hard to apply when her troops "ignore" free strikes, have extra threat and can have a hit buff. She doesn't lose martyrdoom if models have grievous... you can actually kill what you hit instead of asking for permission. I'm not quite following sorry. What do you mean when you say Harby lists 'ignore free strikes', I mean she can martydoom free strikes allowing her troops to charge past them. and also "she doesn't lose martyrdom if models have grievous". She hates seeing grievous wounds. My point exactly.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 25, 2018 16:04:54 GMT
I'm just glad Harby can no longer tank it up to arm 25 in the late game
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Post by jisidro on May 25, 2018 16:28:12 GMT
I'm just glad Harby can no longer tank it up to arm 25 in the late game One of my last tournamenty games of MK2 was against Harbinger and the changes to the power field where known... I manage to get a Primaled Ghetorix onto Harbinger, proced horribly including 2 snake eyes for damage and she lives. We did the math if it was MK3 she would have died on the 3rd hit with the exact same rolls. Big change and a welcome one. A side-effect for Harbinger is that if she can predict how much focus she needs to camp she can use the rest for healing because focus not used is useless focus. Myexperience is that she heals with focus more in mk3 than she did in mk2.
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Post by oncomingstorm on May 25, 2018 16:56:51 GMT
In my experience, trying to use martyrdom to enable an assassination on Harbinger is…nearly always a mistake. Most of the things she’s martyring aren’t easy enough to kill that you can force repeated martyrdoms reliably (and if you have a way of doing so, she simply…won’t use martyrdom). 13/21 no KD paladins, 18 Def Evasive Kick Monks, even dug in Idrians…these are not models that you can typically get away with repeatedly killing, especially if you’re affected by Awe. Even just the Hierophant + her own focus are typically enough to keep her topped up on a turn by turn basis.
You beat Harbinger by assassinating her, by threatening assassination to the extent that she can’t afford to martyr at all (difficult to do on a turn by turn basis) and by circumventing her martyrdom with either no healing tech or positioning. Trying to grind her out is almost always a Very Bad Idea™.
As I said in the CID, I’m baffled as to why they felt the need to hand an extremely powerful buff to one of the stronger warcasters in Menoth. But if that’s what they’re doing…well, I know a certain evil tree that’s got a CMD dependent ability, and who has seen far less play than Harby in recent months. Perhaps a buff is in order there, too?
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blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
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Post by blakeh1 on May 25, 2018 16:59:12 GMT
The fact that you can heal does not make Harvy immortal, nor OP. She has access to the same amount of healing as every other caster other than she has 4 more focus than most. So really we are looking at 4 heal, or 1 min and 1 max martyrdom... Harby with Bastions will be good, but again not broken. Grevious Wounds is a thing and kills Harby lists dead. Whilst I am interested to try her in EI (Cinerator spam), I too agree that FM is where she shines because of the full pala boat. The concern over Harbinger with Bastions, is it can become an easy damage source to soften Harbinger up if you rely too much on Martying the Bastions It is sometimes an easy trap to fall into where you get so concerned trying to keep something alive, meanwhile you've been baited into doing most of the work for your opponent I actually find it very compelling trying to play Harbinger because of those hard choices
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Post by oncomingstorm on May 25, 2018 17:05:04 GMT
The fact that you can heal does not make Harvy immortal, nor OP. She has access to the same amount of healing as every other caster other than she has 4 more focus than most. So really we are looking at 4 heal, or 1 min and 1 max martyrdom... Harby with Bastions will be good, but again not broken. Grevious Wounds is a thing and kills Harby lists dead. Whilst I am interested to try her in EI (Cinerator spam), I too agree that FM is where she shines because of the full pala boat. The concern over Harbinger with Bastions, is it can become an easy damage source to soften Harbinger up if you rely too much on Martying the Bastions It is sometimes an easy trap to fall into where you get so concerned trying to keep something alive, meanwhile you've been baited into doing most of the work for your opponent I actually find it very compelling trying to play Harbinger because of those hard choices The choice is typically not a difficult one for a decent Harbinger player. If you get gotcha'd by an assassination attempt you didn't see coming, maybe, but typically this doesn't happen to good players, in my experience.
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on May 25, 2018 17:19:57 GMT
I'm not quite following sorry. What do you mean when you say Harby lists 'ignore free strikes', I mean she can martydoom free strikes allowing her troops to charge past them. Ok, so taking this back to the post in which you brought up ignoring free strikes - how does "ignoring free strikes" help you avoid grievous wounds? Your model gets hit by a free strike, grievous wounds is applied, and then you can't martyr it.
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Post by jisidro on May 25, 2018 17:42:01 GMT
Dead models don't apply grievous wounds...
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Post by paradox on May 25, 2018 21:03:59 GMT
No, I got it. Im saying youre making a ridiculous overstatement, and explained why it was so. I didn't understand your explanation... Can you elaborate? The fact that you can heal does not make Harvy immortal, nor OP. She has access to the same amount of healing as every other caster other than she has 4 more focus than most. So really we are looking at 4 heal, or 1 min and 1 max martyrdom... Harby with Bastions will be good, but again not broken. Grevious Wounds is a thing and kills Harby lists dead. Whilst I am interested to try her in EI (Cinerator spam), I too agree that FM is where she shines because of the full pala boat. She has access to the same healing as the other casters but they don't have martyrdoom. She has an extra resource that gives her an option so strong that her spell list is usually forgotten when talking about her. As to grievous wounds... melee grievous wounds is hard to apply when her troops "ignore" free strikes, have extra threat and can have a hit buff. She doesn't lose martyrdoom if models have grievous... you can actually kill what you hit instead of asking for permission. The fact that by spending 21pts+ and lucking into the correct scenarios means she can have access to up to 3D3+1 in healing in a given turn does not amount to "excessive" healing. For one, the hierophant must be B2B to heal her, giving you some OOO to work around and a leash model. The objective has to be alive and in a relevent place to heal her, while not leaving her exposed. There's every chance it doesnt surive round2/3. Assuming it was in a place she could use at all. The VoJ takes D3 to heal her D3. It won't last forever, and is exceptionally difficult to hide. Realistically, she has the hiero, maybe the VoJ, if it can afford it. And the objective early game. Once to objective falls, she's at 1-2 D3+1, depending on VoJ. And assuming hiero isnt getting sniped at (quickly making it an unattractive piece to martyr for). If youre finding this overpowering, its probably you and not Harbie thats the issue. Kill the objective and VoJ. Her healing falls off fast, and she cannot martyr either piece.
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