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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 23, 2018 15:05:34 GMT
Darius, nemo 1, nemo 2, Caine 1, Caine 2, Caine 3, stryker 3, Constance, sturgis, Haley 1, Jake's 2, and kara all need some level of improvement, with most needing some awesome buffs and 1cir 2 just needing side grade improvements to design.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 23, 2018 15:10:15 GMT
Darius, nemo 1, nemo 2, Caine 1, Caine 2, Caine 3, stryker 3, Constance, sturgis, Haley 1, Jake's 2, and kara all need some level of improvement, with most needing some awesome buffs and 1cir 2 just needing side grade improvements to design. Should only take about 10 CID cycles, so the good news is they will all be sorted by about MK6!
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on May 23, 2018 17:14:22 GMT
Darius, nemo 1, nemo 2, Caine 1, Caine 2, Caine 3, stryker 3, Constance, sturgis, Haley 1, Jake's 2, and kara all need some level of improvement, with most needing some awesome buffs and 1cir 2 just needing side grade improvements to design. Copied the casters you listed to give quick takes on your comment Darius - doesn't need much. nemo 1 - my favorite. He's better than you think. nemo 2 - Agree he needs work Caine 1 - I think he's fine. Caine 2 - Needs just a tiny tweak, hence this thread Caine 3 - Needs nothing. Already good. stryker 3 - Probably needs a small tweak Constance - Needs something, hence this thread sturgis - Will probably always be bottom-tier Haley 1 - doesn't need much if anything. Jake's 2 - doesn't need much. kara - Needs nothing. Already good.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 23, 2018 21:34:23 GMT
Darius, nemo 1, nemo 2, Caine 1, Caine 2, Caine 3, stryker 3, Constance, sturgis, Haley 1, Jake's 2, and kara all need some level of improvement, with most needing some awesome buffs and 1cir 2 just needing side grade improvements to design. Copied the casters you listed to give quick takes on your comment Darius - doesn't need much. nemo 1 - my favorite. He's better than you think. nemo 2 - Agree he needs work Caine 1 - I think he's fine. Caine 2 - Needs just a tiny tweak, hence this thread Caine 3 - Needs nothing. Already good. stryker 3 - Probably needs a small tweak Constance - Needs something, hence this thread sturgis - Will probably always be bottom-tier Haley 1 - doesn't need much if anything. Jake's 2 - doesn't need much. kara - Needs nothing. Already good. Darius needs a feat worth a damn, tbh. And the fact that he doesn't have reconstruct truly baffles me. Nemo 1 has a lot of focus, but all his abilities are inefficient. Replace locomotion with Road to War and we can start to talk. Nemo 2 has a lot of interesting things going on, but the crappiness of Cygnar heavies really holds him back. Tbh one thing I would do is pull lightning shroud off his card and put synergy onto it. Caine 1 needs a little something to make him not so 1 dimensional. Caine 3 as well. Caine 3s design is pretty degenerate and he could really use a rebuild imo. "only shooting" casters aren't fun or well designed. Stryker 3 is atrocious and needs a rebuild. He's the dogganm military leader of cygnar not chargy mcchargeface. Haley 1 doesn't need much, it's true, but she isn't seeing much play for a reason. Jake's 2 is also a victim of crappy cygnar heavies, but she also doesn't have anywhere close to the focus needed to play the game she wants to play and her feat just isn't very good in cygnar. Kara is another degenerate gunline caster who's designe just doesn't add much to the game.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 23, 2018 23:28:32 GMT
Darius, nemo 1, nemo 2, Caine 1, Caine 2, Caine 3, stryker 3, Constance, sturgis, Haley 1, Jake's 2, and kara all need some level of improvement, with most needing some awesome buffs and 1cir 2 just needing side grade improvements to design. Should only take about 10 CID cycles, so the good news is they will all be sorted by about MK6! Its true. If I had to limit my fixes I think fixing Cygnars heavies is the highest priority. Cygnar heavies are overly fragile and don't do enough for their cost and they bring down other lists and pieces with them. If cygnar heavies (particularly the melee ones) became more useful then a lot of cygnar casters would get a boost and sons might become a real list. After that, cygnars melee infantry needs work. Stormblades, stormguard, silverline, sword Knights and precursors are pretty much all some degree of not worth playing. I personally think a lot more good would be done if heavies and melee infantry were fixed than if any of the casters were.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 24, 2018 8:19:44 GMT
octaviusmaximus I agree that Cygnar heavies are hardly stellar, but I always felt that our light warjacks were meant to be our outstanding pieces, and that our heavies are mostly 'just about ok'. It seems that is part of our faction identity, and I can't see PP drastically altering that dynamic. If they were to 'fix' any warjack, I would prefer them to lower the cost of the Stormwall and Hurricane about 2 points, every CID where gargossals have been involved have seen pretty drastic point reductions and buffs, I think it's safe to say they are all slightly overcosted.
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on May 24, 2018 13:18:35 GMT
Nemo 1 has a lot of focus, but all his abilities are inefficient. Replace locomotion with Road to War and we can start to talk. Ok, I know I'm not the only one to be a Nemo1 fanboy, ( snarlyyow ) but I am a Nemo1 fanboy. You call Locomotion "inefficient". But if you only need one inch, you only use one focus. Sure, it's only one jack. But do you know how many times I've used that spell to completely surprise my opponent with out-of-activation movement that opened up a charge lane or got Dynamo out of melee to aim and light up a caster who thought they were safe? Three inches is kind of a big deal, and my biggest issue with locomotion is that it's only range 6. It's the biggest reason I always take a lancer with Nemo1. I'll grant you that Nemo1's feat, in my experience, has been garbage into hordes. And he's got those old man stats for sure. But holy cow is he a fun caster to play. Its true. If I had to limit my fixes I think fixing Cygnars heavies is the highest priority. Cygnar heavies are overly fragile and don't do enough for their cost and they bring down other lists and pieces with them. If cygnar heavies (particularly the melee ones) became more useful then a lot of cygnar casters would get a boost and sons might become a real list. But expensive premium jacks is Cygnar's whole thing. If you want cheap beatstick jacks, you play mercs and run Nomads or Drillers. And fragile? Only compared to Khador heavies. Our heavies are arm 18 or 19. That's not terrible. And when you speak of the melee heavies, that's two, and they're our cheapest. It's another Cygnar thing to have nearly every model include guns. Sorry - not trying to be argumentative. After that, cygnars melee infantry needs work. Stormblades, stormguard, silverline, sword Knights and precursors are pretty much all some degree of not worth playing. Yes. Absolutely. octaviusmaximus I agree that Cygnar heavies are hardly stellar, but I always felt that our light warjacks were meant to be our outstanding pieces, and that our heavies are mostly 'just about ok'. It seems that is part of our faction identity, and I can't see PP drastically altering that dynamic. Agreed that the charger, firefly, and grenadier are pretty good. And I guess I like the hunter. Minuteman and Sentinel aren't terrib... you know what, I just agree. If they were to 'fix' any warjack, I would prefer them to lower the cost of the Stormwall and Hurricane about 2 points, every CID where gargossals have been involved have seen pretty drastic point reductions and buffs, I think it's safe to say they are all slightly overcosted. I'd like to see some more differentiation between those two pointswise. Also, the stormwall has lost all its lightning shenanigans now that stormpods can no longer be lightning nodes.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 24, 2018 13:27:54 GMT
octaviusmaximus I agree that Cygnar heavies are hardly stellar, but I always felt that our light warjacks were meant to be our outstanding pieces, and that our heavies are mostly 'just about ok'. It seems that is part of our faction identity, and I can't see PP drastically altering that dynamic. If they were to 'fix' any warjack, I would prefer them to lower the cost of the Stormwall and Hurricane about 2 points, every CID where gargossals have been involved have seen pretty drastic point reductions and buffs, I think it's safe to say they are all slightly overcosted. I don't think any faction should be defined by what its bad at. If Cygnar is meant to have bad heavies then they should save the plastic and ink and give Cygnar no heavies. I don't think Cygnars heavies are "just about ok", I think in general they are on the lower end of hitting power, efficiency and defensiveness and on the higher end of cost. The Hurricane feels like a 37 point model, the Stormwall is quite a bit below that, especially with the nerf to electroleaps making the Stormpod's primary purpose irrelevant. The Ironclad is too easy to kill for its points and hitting power The Hammersmith is too hard to get to important places and needs pow buffing spells to work. The Cyclone does very little of value. I thought the Reliant had an aoe4 for a year and that it was trash, then I learned it had an aoe 3. The Defender is too expensive for a gun that only hits 1 model a turn (compare to a Vindicator or a Ravagore) The Centurion is fine, but pillowfisted so while it can anchor it doesn't solve the hitting power problem. The Avenger is too short ranged on everything it does. The Stormclad is too expensive for what is essentially a 1 use beatstick. It hits hard, but its too inefficient for its job. Thunderhead needs work, Dynamo and Rowdy could use a very slight tweak, Gallant is about perfect but chained to Constance "Lead Anchor" Blaize.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 24, 2018 13:42:23 GMT
octaviusmaximus could be worse, at least all our heavies are mat 7, I am playing mainly mercs atm and mat 6 is such a downgrade
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 24, 2018 13:47:42 GMT
Nemo 1 has a lot of focus, but all his abilities are inefficient. Replace locomotion with Road to War and we can start to talk. Ok, I know I'm not the only one to be a Nemo1 fanboy, ( snarlyyow ) but I am a Nemo1 fanboy. You call Locomotion "inefficient". But if you only need one inch, you only use one focus. Sure, it's only one jack. But do you know how many times I've used that spell to completely surprise my opponent with out-of-activation movement that opened up a charge lane or got Dynamo out of melee to aim and light up a caster who thought they were safe? Three inches is kind of a big deal, and my biggest issue with locomotion is that it's only range 6. It's the biggest reason I always take a lancer with Nemo1. I'll grant you that Nemo1's feat, in my experience, has been garbage into hordes. And he's got those old man stats for sure. But holy cow is he a fun caster to play. Its true. If I had to limit my fixes I think fixing Cygnars heavies is the highest priority. Cygnar heavies are overly fragile and don't do enough for their cost and they bring down other lists and pieces with them. If cygnar heavies (particularly the melee ones) became more useful then a lot of cygnar casters would get a boost and sons might become a real list. But expensive premium jacks is Cygnar's whole thing. If you want cheap beatstick jacks, you play mercs and run Nomads or Drillers. And fragile? Only compared to Khador heavies. Our heavies are arm 18 or 19. That's not terrible. And when you speak of the melee heavies, that's two, and they're our cheapest. It's another Cygnar thing to have nearly every model include guns. Sorry - not trying to be argumentative. After that, cygnars melee infantry needs work. Stormblades, stormguard, silverline, sword Knights and precursors are pretty much all some degree of not worth playing. Yes. Absolutely. octaviusmaximus I agree that Cygnar heavies are hardly stellar, but I always felt that our light warjacks were meant to be our outstanding pieces, and that our heavies are mostly 'just about ok'. It seems that is part of our faction identity, and I can't see PP drastically altering that dynamic. Agreed that the charger, firefly, and grenadier are pretty good. And I guess I like the hunter. Minuteman and Sentinel aren't terrib... you know what, I just agree. If they were to 'fix' any warjack, I would prefer them to lower the cost of the Stormwall and Hurricane about 2 points, every CID where gargossals have been involved have seen pretty drastic point reductions and buffs, I think it's safe to say they are all slightly overcosted. I'd like to see some more differentiation between those two pointswise. Also, the stormwall has lost all its lightning shenanigans now that stormpods can no longer be lightning nodes. Nemo 1 was my favourite Cygnar caster in Mk2. I ran him far more than it was healthy and in the change PP managed to miss the point entirely about him. Locomotion is a terrible spell because the the range is very short and 1-3 focus is too much for the effect. 2 cost for Energiser, 1-3 for Locomotion. Having a caster that has a lot of focus, but is inefficient with it, just makes them a regular efficiency caster. If they want to make Expensive, premium jacks a Cygnar thing then I'm fine with that, but so far our jacks aren't premium, they are decidedly average while also being expensive.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 24, 2018 13:48:43 GMT
octaviusmaximus could be worse, at least all our heavies are mat 7, I am playing mainly mercs atm and mat 6 is such a downgrade Mat 7, Rat 6 is a huge saving grace but it isn't enough to make it work, imo.
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Post by droopingpuppy on May 24, 2018 15:58:44 GMT
octaviusmaximus could be worse, at least all our heavies are mat 7, I am playing mainly mercs atm and mat 6 is such a downgrade I don't think that our heavies are useless like as what octaviusmaximus said(although some arguements of him has a reason to do), but MAT 7 is not an issue on here and it is not so important either. With our vast of heavy warjacks choice, only Hammersmith desperately needs for MAT 7 because of its Chain Attack. MAT 7 is not the good advantage of the rest of them. Remember that P+S 18+2 Crusader+Battle outmatches P+S 19 Juggernaut in melee. For the heavy warjack, MAT 6 is fine and MAT 7 is not that required unless your meta is filled with DEF 14(no less or no more) warjacks/warbeasts. Against DEF 13- MAT 6 is still fine to go, and against DEF 15+ you will need to boost the attack roll anyways whatever your model's MAT is 6 or 7. What really important is P+S, that is actually have a meaning to against the enemy heavy. Again, Crusader+Battle cause more expected damage output than Juggernaut, even consider MAT 6 hits less than MAT 7 its higher damage overshadows the rate to miss easily. MAT 5 or less is a problem, for there are many DEF 12 heavies. But most heavies you can face are DEF 10 to 12, or 13, so MAT 6 is fine. MAT 7 is good, but not good enough to forfeit more points on P+S. -------------------------------------------------- And, octavius, I don't think that P+S 18 is safe to say as pillow fisted. P+S 18 is enough to cause serious damage to Juggernaut chassis. P+S 17 is somewhat weak I think, but 18 is a standard stat for a heavy warjack - especially for SPD 5 heavy warjacks. Do not fell into the delusion of P+S 19&20 of Juggernaut&Crusader; they are SPD 4 warjacks, not 5. And Centurion is quite durable already, even without Arcane Shield, and it also denies charge, means it have already more advantage than the other SPD 4 warjacks. I am agreed that our warjacks are quite weak unless we can afford Arcane Shield, and makes us difficult to use many heavies at once, but they are not so useless and weak either. Our stuffs are expensive but there is a reason to do.
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Post by pvtjoker on May 24, 2018 17:45:09 GMT
octaviusmaximus could be worse, at least all our heavies are mat 7, I am playing mainly mercs atm and mat 6 is such a downgrade Mat 7, Rat 6 is a huge saving grace but it isn't enough to make it work, imo. I was better in older versions when Khador jacks were MAT 6 and Cygnar's accuracy was supposed to offset the lower POW/ARM (though calling POW 18 pillowfisted is a but much) but now that distinction is gone. In terms of casters I have really enjoyed Nemo1 over the last year and have really liked him into Cryx which is unusual. Caine2 definitely needs to lose empowered shot even if his shot types change. Pistoleer definitely fits him, but it feels like it would be over the top. I keep wanting to try him in GD or SotT, but I don't get to play enough to spend time on experimenting to that degree.
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on May 24, 2018 18:13:14 GMT
Caine2 definitely needs to lose empowered shot even if his shot types change. Pistoleer definitely fits him, but it feels like it would be over the top. I keep wanting to try him in GD or SotT, but I don't get to play enough to spend time on experimenting to that degree. Wow! Are we actually back on topic? ;-) I don't think Pistoleer on Caine2 would be over the top at all. Sure, it means that damage becomes insane when he's B2B, but his biggest problem with the assassination has always been defense, not armor. His feat kills heavies, and warnouns have fewer boxes even with focus. It's the high DEF and terrain that brings casters up to DEF 21 that gives him issues, and pistoleer doesn't help him with defense at all. Plus, it makes that difficult to get gatecrasher assassination an even better payoff in the rare chances you can actually get it. Hmm. But on the other hand, if Caine decided to feat against an ARM20 colossal, and got B2B, he'd do an average of 58.5 damage. Sooo maybe I've got to take back my claim. Yeah, ok, maybe it is over the top.
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Post by jisidro on May 24, 2018 19:28:17 GMT
Stormclad Mat 7, PS 19, Reach Ironclad Mat 7, PS 18, KD option Hammersmith MAT 7, PS 17, Chain attack
Lightweights for sure...
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