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Post by hypnotoad on May 13, 2018 18:55:59 GMT
OK everyone, I've been thinking of minor and quick changes to three of my favorite casters to make them...more competitive. Caine2, pSturgis, and Constance. Considering the drastic changes to the game from MK2 to MK3, I think these casters have been left even further in the dust. You know, except Caine2, he got modified heavily and then, as you all know, got changed again. So, the aim of this thread would be to discuss some changes I have thought of that would both help these casters and still keep the original flavor of the character, without a large and drastic rules overhaul. This post will deal with specifically Caine2.
Caine2
Personally, and I believe some of you may agree, I interpret Caine2 as being a super solo assassin caster that supports his army with his superior personal killing ability. Want to support your shooting army with spell buffs? Play Caine1. Want to play Caine but want to have a cool and useful battlegroup? Play Caine3.
To achieve some semblance of Caine2 being a competitive murder super solo, two things need to change: Empowered Shot and his spell list.
Firstly, I'm not proposing that Empowered Shot should be changed back to what it used to be, that's crazy or at least too crazy for all the people that complained about it in the beginning of MK3. What I suggest and I believe this has been discussed before, Caine2 should get free empowered shots on his initial attacks. I believe the rule should be worded something like this:
Empowered Shot: When this model makes an initial attack with this weapon, before the attack roll it can gain one of the following special rules. When this model buys additional attacks with this weapon, it may spend 1 focus point to gain one of the following special rules. Empowered Shot can be used only once per attack.
As others have also mentioned, this solution would make Empowered Shot worth using again but also limit its usefulness.
Secondly, Caine2's spell list on the whole is awful and in the past that was OK. Most of the time you didn't want to cast the spells anyway. If you're like me, you want to use that precious focus to buy shots. Alright, here is my change:
Spell List:
Bullet Dodger - It stays on the list. I think this spell is overrated but it has some uses and works well with the feel of what Caine2 should be. My dream would be to drop this spell for Quicken but I doubt Cygnar will ever get that spell.
Fire for Effect - This spell has to go. It is horrible. I wish PP would stop giving this spell out to Cygnar casters. What do you cast this on? Artillery? Why is Caine2 taking artillery? The guy IS his own artillery. I understand that it can make certain shots more focus efficient but, in my experience, it isn't worth it.
Hot Shot - I believe this spell should replace FoF. I know, it would be really good but would it be absurdly good? Broken good? Honestly, I'm not sure. Assuming you cast this on Caine2 and you're using a Squire focus to upkeep the spell, you're potentially getting 8 POW 12 boosted damage shots. Assuming that's against ARM 20 and all hits, on average damage roles that's 16 damage and Caine is out of focus. While that would leave Caine2 very vulnerable, the Caine2 player would be capable of that every round, even without using his feat. Anyway, I'm definitely open to discussion about this.
Gate Crasher - This spell stays. It's a classic and has its uses offensively and defensively.
Heightened Spell - As much as I lament not being able to cast this on 4+ tough Boomhowler's anymore, this spells should stay too. It has its uses.
Alright, let me know what you guys think. Is Hot Shot too powerful? Would it make feat turn assassination a sure thing? Is there a better and elegant solution to fixing Caine2? Let's talk about it.
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Post by darkangeldentist on May 13, 2018 23:36:39 GMT
If you want a simple elegant solution to making Caine2 good again without going overboard then I doubt that giving him hotshot is going in the right direction.
I don't agree that his spell list is awful and even your own changes only affect one spell. Hot shot would be absurdly good on Caine and particularly silly on his feat turn. Because of theme forces as well other changes Caine isn't stuck to just POW 12s anymore. With Falk (who quite likes bullet dodger to help keep him alive) Caine can easily be shooting POW 14s, which changes the maths drastically, add in the other damage buff options and it can start getting silly but just the +2 is enough to tip him from doing modest damage on average rolls to almost one-rounding a khador heavy! That's ignoring the feat turn. Much as fire for effect is a mediocre spell (in Cygnar at least) it's not inherently bad and has it's uses even despite the overlap with Caine's own amazing personal ranged presence.
I would leave his spell list alone, whilst it's not great (I miss magic bullet) most of the spells are functional and the main problem is Caine's eternal selfish nature for wanting every last focus for himself. In light of this the change I would make to him would be to give him the resourceful rule letting him upkeep for free on his battlegroup. This neatly fits into some of the themes as well but primarily is gives him a way to have his many upkeeps out without conflicting his desire to keep his focus for himself.
As for empowered shot, I just want rid of the rule. No other caster (to my knowledge) with attack types has to pay for them be it initials or bought attacks. It's introduction side-stepped the original problem that caused all the fuss in the first place (in my opinion). Trick shot is overpowered on anything with more than rate of fire 1! Maybe I'm wrong there but trick shot was certainly the attack type I used most often when I played Caine and the one that inflicted the most grief. Even with empowered shot it's the only attack type I would choose to use but it's not much different from buying an extra attack except with greater range and is harder to prevent albeit with lower POW.
My proposal here would be to go back to letting him choose his attack types freely but remove 'trick shot' and replace it with 'ward breaker'. Caine is meant to be an assassin and this would definitely fit with that image.
I hope you don't mind that I've basically rejected your proposals and offered up my own suggestions but I have tried to explain why. Hot-shot is overpowered on Caine, even ignoring the feat it takes very little to tip it into the 'serious armour cracker' range for damage output. Giving his initials attack types isn't a bad compromise but adds to his rules and there are pitfalls like the interaction with 'reloader' from Reinholdt.
On an unrelated side-note, why the heck does the foremost pistol duellist in the iron kingdoms not the 'quickdraw' special rule?!
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Post by hypnotoad on May 14, 2018 4:19:11 GMT
Ha, I don't mind disagreement. I think you're right about, Hot Shot. Even if he did receive it, I don't think it would be completely game breaking but it may limit some design space for future releases.
Oh, man. I miss Magic Bullet a lot too. While I think Resourceful would be a great ability on Caine2, I don't think he'll ever receive it. It seems to be in the design place for 'jack/mechanically inclined casters, which Caine2 is not.
Would Wardbreaker be too good on the feat turn assassination? I find that terrain + def/arm buffs are usually what makes his feat turn dicey. Maybe that should be less so.
What if as you suggest that Empowered Shot went back to being unlimited and Trick Shot was dropped but Magic Bullet was added to his spell list? Magic Bullet gets added and Fire for Effect is dropped. Is that worth it?
Also, speaking of Quickdraw, why doesn't he have Quickdraw AND/OR Pistoleer? If there is a guy that should either one of these rules, it should be this guy!
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Post by mydnight on May 14, 2018 5:26:42 GMT
Pistolier would be a great fix for him
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Post by darkangeldentist on May 14, 2018 8:58:38 GMT
Ha, I don't mind disagreement. I think you're right about, Hot Shot. Even if he did receive it, I don't think it would be completely game breaking but it may limit some design space for future releases. Oh, man. I miss Magic Bullet a lot too. While I think Resourceful would be a great ability on Caine2, I don't think he'll ever receive it. It seems to be in the design place for 'jack/mechanically inclined casters, which Caine2 is not. Would Wardbreaker be too good on the feat turn assassination? I find that terrain + def/arm buffs are usually what makes his feat turn dicey. Maybe that should be less so. What if as you suggest that Empowered Shot went back to being unlimited and Trick Shot was dropped but Magic Bullet was added to his spell list? Magic Bullet gets added and Fire for Effect is dropped. Is that worth it? Also, speaking of Quickdraw, why doesn't he have Quickdraw AND/OR Pistoleer? If there is a guy that should either one of these rules, it should be this guy! I somehow doubt that they'll give him back magic bullet because of Ace. My suspicion is that trick shot stacked with Magic bullet is a little too obnoxious and open to argumentative questions. (From whether you can pick the same target, presumably yes, to do you have to declare the targets for both before any damage dice?) There's also nearly nothing opponents can do about it. It makes me sad but that is how my line of reasoning went towards working out why he lost magic bullet. Resourceful is a great rule which I am suggesting because of it's functionality and in Mk3 the list of resourceful casters now includes Strakhov and Jallam who do not come across as strongly battlegroup themed. Regardless, there is a fluff argument for it in that Caine2 comes across as a super solo assassin who operates alone, without support and has to be resourceful and enterprising to get the job done. I find this idea and justification more compelling than the argument that 'resourceful' casters are battlegroup focused synergists who operate best when supporting their warjacks/beasts so Caine2 can't have that rule because he doesn't fit this image. I'm not convinced that ward breaker would be too good on feat turn but it certainly makes him scarier. It's one of the few instances though where ward breaker would be a relevant attack type option for a model and it's a shot type that already exists in Cygnar. (Blazers would generally prefer electro-leap or brutal damage, the rifleman has snipe or deadly shot but the point here is that it's not a unique addition.) I'd like to ask what ward breaker is doing to push Caine over the edge here? Terrain would still help make his assassination run dicey but although being able to ignore spell effects definitely helps him, focus and transfers will provide significant protection and there are feats to consider as well. Another reason for suggesting it is that it would help make him a better choice into a lot more match ups. Spell buffs were often what I found pushed him into a corner because a +2 ARM buff usually makes the dice math significantly worse for him forces the 'all-in' assassination run that makes games short and less satisfying. Pistoleer would be cool, it would also be very strong. Not as strong as hot shot but still enough to make Caine really, really scary. It sounds great, I'd want to see the play-tested a lot first.
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Post by Azuresun on May 14, 2018 10:05:44 GMT
Hot Shot - I believe this spell should replace FoF. I know, it would be really good but would it be absurdly good? Broken good? Honestly, I'm not sure. Assuming you cast this on Caine2 and you're using a Squire focus to upkeep the spell, you're potentially getting 8 POW 12 boosted damage shots. Assuming that's against ARM 20 and all hits, on average damage roles that's 16 damage and Caine is out of focus. While that would leave Caine2 very vulnerable, the Caine2 player would be capable of that every round, even without using his feat. Anyway, I'm definitely open to discussion about this.
Why are you assuming it's against ARM 20?
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on May 14, 2018 13:00:39 GMT
Caine2 is my favorite Caine, and I'd love to see a "fix", but I think most people would concede that Hot Shot would be OP for him.
Honestly, I don't think he needs much to be viable. For me, the biggest issue is themes. When you look at the models Caine2 would want if themes didn't exist, they're spread across all the themes: Rangers for Mark Target are in gravediggers. GMCAs for flare and shadow fire are in SotT, Eiryss1 to strip focus/fury for the assassination is only available as a merc solo option in Storm Division. Also, Caine can't take focus-independent models like stormlances or a strider without giving up everything else. Due to this, I always play Caine2 out of theme. I think the theme thing hurts Caine2 way more than the shot type nerf he took. If I could get all the models he needs in any one theme, I think he'd be good.
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Post by jagius021 on May 14, 2018 13:21:00 GMT
As for Constance, another morrowan unit would greatly help. A 6 man morrowan battle priest unit would be great. Something that passively aids the knights, like an aura of armor or def. Then a magic 6 range 10 pow 10 holy bolt magic attack that gets an additional die against undead models. Supports knights to bring them up to par and adds a bit of a ranged game to the mix. Hell, we could shake up cygnar entirely by making them multi wound medium base infantry
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on May 14, 2018 15:09:39 GMT
I think we're looking at a Morrowan CID at some point in the (not necessarily near) future. As much as stormguard, stormsmith grenadiers, and OR long gunners might need it, Cygnar's Morrowan contingent is even more lacking. How about...
-Precursor Cavalry: 13/18, 5 boxes, POW14 w/brutal charge blessed lances (with the lance rule) - Without ranged attacks,
-Battle Chaplain: An alternate command attachment for Sword Knights that makes them into Morrowan models
I'm just brainstorming, and agreeing with the fact that more Morrowans would help.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 14, 2018 17:15:26 GMT
Give Caine Magic Bullet back! #Justice4Caine2
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Post by hypnotoad on May 18, 2018 2:40:18 GMT
Ha, I don't mind disagreement. I think you're right about, Hot Shot. Even if he did receive it, I don't think it would be completely game breaking but it may limit some design space for future releases. Oh, man. I miss Magic Bullet a lot too. While I think Resourceful would be a great ability on Caine2, I don't think he'll ever receive it. It seems to be in the design place for 'jack/mechanically inclined casters, which Caine2 is not. Would Wardbreaker be too good on the feat turn assassination? I find that terrain + def/arm buffs are usually what makes his feat turn dicey. Maybe that should be less so. What if as you suggest that Empowered Shot went back to being unlimited and Trick Shot was dropped but Magic Bullet was added to his spell list? Magic Bullet gets added and Fire for Effect is dropped. Is that worth it? Also, speaking of Quickdraw, why doesn't he have Quickdraw AND/OR Pistoleer? If there is a guy that should either one of these rules, it should be this guy! I somehow doubt that they'll give him back magic bullet because of Ace. My suspicion is that trick shot stacked with Magic bullet is a little too obnoxious and open to argumentative questions. (From whether you can pick the same target, presumably yes, to do you have to declare the targets for both before any damage dice?) There's also nearly nothing opponents can do about it. It makes me sad but that is how my line of reasoning went towards working out why he lost magic bullet. Resourceful is a great rule which I am suggesting because of it's functionality and in Mk3 the list of resourceful casters now includes Strakhov and Jallam who do not come across as strongly battlegroup themed. Regardless, there is a fluff argument for it in that Caine2 comes across as a super solo assassin who operates alone, without support and has to be resourceful and enterprising to get the job done. I find this idea and justification more compelling than the argument that 'resourceful' casters are battlegroup focused synergists who operate best when supporting their warjacks/beasts so Caine2 can't have that rule because he doesn't fit this image. I'm not convinced that ward breaker would be too good on feat turn but it certainly makes him scarier. It's one of the few instances though where ward breaker would be a relevant attack type option for a model and it's a shot type that already exists in Cygnar. (Blazers would generally prefer electro-leap or brutal damage, the rifleman has snipe or deadly shot but the point here is that it's not a unique addition.) I'd like to ask what ward breaker is doing to push Caine over the edge here? Terrain would still help make his assassination run dicey but although being able to ignore spell effects definitely helps him, focus and transfers will provide significant protection and there are feats to consider as well. Another reason for suggesting it is that it would help make him a better choice into a lot more match ups. Spell buffs were often what I found pushed him into a corner because a +2 ARM buff usually makes the dice math significantly worse for him forces the 'all-in' assassination run that makes games short and less satisfying. Pistoleer would be cool, it would also be very strong. Not as strong as hot shot but still enough to make Caine really, really scary. It sounds great, I'd want to see the play-tested a lot first. I think PP would have to create a Tactical Tip or clarification on Caine2's card that said that Magic Bullet couldn't be combined with Trick Shot. That would likely be the only easy and concise way to address it.
Also, as much as I like the mechanics of Caine2 getting Resourceful, I just don't think they'll ever give it to him...though he can be pretty resourceful in his standalone books...
I think Pistoleer would have enough trade-offs for Caine. Even with Gatecrasher, Caine's melee threat range would be pretty predictable and committing him to melee would be a HUGE gamble in most circumstances.
At this point in the discussion, my thoughts on Caine2:
Empowered Shots gets changed back to every shot being free but Trick Shot gets dropped for Wardbreaker. Fire for Effect should get dropped for Magic Bullet. Picks up Pistoleer and/or Resourceful (even though I think Pistoleer would be a cooler option).
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Post by hypnotoad on May 18, 2018 2:42:53 GMT
Caine2 is my favorite Caine, and I'd love to see a "fix", but I think most people would concede that Hot Shot would be OP for him. Honestly, I don't think he needs much to be viable. For me, the biggest issue is themes. When you look at the models Caine2 would want if themes didn't exist, they're spread across all the themes: Rangers for Mark Target are in gravediggers. GMCAs for flare and shadow fire are in SotT, Eiryss1 to strip focus/fury for the assassination is only available as a merc solo option in Storm Division. Also, Caine can't take focus-independent models like stormlances or a strider without giving up everything else. Due to this, I always play Caine2 out of theme. I think the theme thing hurts Caine2 way more than the shot type nerf he took. If I could get all the models he needs in any one theme, I think he'd be good. I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I think he suffers a lot from something he used to benefit from in MK2. Caine2 loves a wide variety of models and mercenaries. Themes as they are right now just don't work for him very well.
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Post by hypnotoad on May 18, 2018 3:12:16 GMT
As for Constance, another morrowan unit would greatly help. A 6 man morrowan battle priest unit would be great. Something that passively aids the knights, like an aura of armor or def. Then a magic 6 range 10 pow 10 holy bolt magic attack that gets an additional die against undead models. Supports knights to bring them up to par and adds a bit of a ranged game to the mix. Hell, we could shake up cygnar entirely by making them multi wound medium base infantry I would love new Morrowan knight models! However, while I don't disagree, what simple changes would you make to Constance's own personal rules?
I think everything works pretty well with her rules both mechanics and flavor-wise (Radiance of Morrow will get better with more releases, I'm sure) but I have three things I would change:
1. As MANY others have stated, during Constance's feat turn she has to have soul token priority. She gets the soul. That's it. No question of distance or who gets it.
2. Precursor Knights in Constance's army get Sacred Ward instead of Spell Ward. Spell Ward is dumb and its more of a hindrance to this unit than it is a benefit.
3. Her feat, Divine Intervention, should make her troops more survivable. Now, I'm not sure what the best way to go about this is but as of right now, I think her feat should be this:
When a friendly Faction warrior model is destroyed by an enemy attack or collateral damage from an enemy attack while in Blaize's control range, Blaize gains the destroyed mode's soul token. While in her control range, friendly living Faction warrior models gain +1 ARM and +1 DEF for each soul token on Blaize. When Blaize replenishes her focus during your next Control Phase, replace each soul token on her with 1 focus point, then Divine Intervention expires.
I've always felt that Constance's feat was a bit counter intuitive to the fluff. So, I want a lot of dude's to die so Blaize gets more focus and pray I have enough left to retaliate? But the feat also protects your warrior models at the same time, which hurts your focus potential? This schizophrenic feat needs to pick a lane and I think it should be to defend Constance's warrior models better. Is there a better way make her feat defensive? Or is focusing on the defensive aspects of the feat even worth it? Anyway, let me know what you guys think.
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Post by darkangeldentist on May 18, 2018 11:40:59 GMT
I concur with the suggestions that Constance needs to have Soul priority during her feat.
There already exists a mechanism for this in the rule 'Direct spirits' and simply adding it to her card would help a lot. You could make it a feat turn only thing but I think it fits the fluff to give it permanently. Regardless my understanding of her fluff is that she guides and protects the souls of the fallen. Preventing them from being used by her enemies seems the least she should be able to do.
I would change her spell list a bit, because I don't see spell ward disappearing from the game (or precursors), she needs spells that work with Morrowan units. So upkeeps are out the window and Precursor knights have blessed weapons making 'repudiate' somewhat redundant. So I suggest dropping 'repudiate' and replacing it with 'blinding light'. Most of her other spells are 'light' associated (flashing blade, sunburst and radiance of Morrow) so it even kind of works on that level. It's a useful debuff, even for blessed weapons and is suitably passive for messing with the enemy.
From an aesthetic standpoint I would also like to she her statline change with the base ARM go down to 16 but gain the shield icon advantage. It wouldn't be unreasonable to just give her the shield bonus but the point is that she's carrying a proper shield on the model and that ought to be represented by the stats!
So in summary, my changes to Constance would be as follows;
Gain 'direct spirits' as a permanent rule.
Replace the 'repudiate' spell with 'blinding light'
Drop base ARM down to 16 but gain the 'shield +2' icon.
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on May 18, 2018 13:24:00 GMT
Picks up Pistoleer and/or Resourceful (even though I think Pistoleer would be a cooler option).
Or just make Caine2 an Arcane Tempest model so that SotT gives him pistoleer...
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