|
Post by HubertJFarnsworth on May 29, 2018 19:51:19 GMT
Wow. I haven't popped my head into this thread in a while, but now I have, and I find that we're already at a place I thought was years away with 3D printing. One of my favorite science fiction authors and fututists, Cory Doctorow, wrote a short story called Printcrime ( click here to read it) in which the main character is going to jail for 3D printing pharmaceuticals and laptops. (Yeah, we aren't quite there yet) As far as Privateer Press and Warmachine go, I'm a bit torn because I can totally see both sides of this argument. The advent of this tech level of 3D printing effectively means that PP's business model is (at some point) going to no longer be viable unless the IP police lock things down to a degree I think would be problematic. And while Hollywood is big and profitable enough to weather the piracy that does go on, I don't think PP is nearly as profitable a company. I've always been of the mind that piracy is not thievery because nobody is being deprived of property. But at the same time, I can definately see 3D printing leading to the end of Warmachine as a living game. As long as PP is able to stay in business and sell models, they'll continue to tweak and balance our favorite game. But they're not going to be able to do that without a paycheck. The whole thing just makes me kind of sad. Maybe I'll start buying warmachine models from DiscountGamesInc and brick and mortars instead of EBay now, for the same reason that I buy Cory Doctorow's books in hardcover rather than just reading them from his website. I like to support the people that make the things I love. At the same time, I won't fault those who do what they do in order to enjoy stuff they otherwise couldn't afford. I imagine what we'll see eventually, either alongside traditional models or instead of them, will be a licensing system where you pay $XX for a license to print a model or unit. Pricing would be tricky to figure out since you'll end up printing more Chargers than Ol' Rowdys but PP's costs will be substantially lowered by cutting production, packing, and shipping. The one big hangup they'll need to figure out is how you handle resellers; it's one thing to say "This unit of Steelheads costs $20 for the file" but then that person could just start printing out extras to sell or give to people. Plus you'll probably see FLGSs start buying machines to print stuff for customers who don't have their own. Ideally you'd probably want some sort of platform that only gives you a license for X number of prints but I don't know how doable that is.
|
|
gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
|
Post by gmonkey on May 29, 2018 20:17:31 GMT
Licensing can easily be a mess, and it quickly goes the DRM route, which I can't stand. Even then, people would still pirate, and I'm guessing that 3D printed models are going to still be inferior to the ones we use. There are probably a dozen different business models they could pursue, including that licensed printing one. (blech!)
For example, they could change warroom to a service which you pay per month for. Maybe make it "Warroom 3: Mk3" For example, paying 25¢ per month per faction or $2 per month for all factions wouldn't be unreasonable. For new WM players, it would be less expensive, since warroom factions cost like $8 each now. But PP would have ongoing income from the rules, which would make 3D printing less of a financial hit. As cards go out of vogue, warroom is even more important.
|
|
|
Post by NephMakes on May 30, 2018 3:08:17 GMT
Making War Room software-as-a-service could make sense, seeing as how they regularly update rules and entries as part of CID.
I think the key to a digital business model for miniatures is to make sure that getting models legally is convenient and priced appropriately for what they are. People are happy to pay for their Game of Thrones episodes when HBO's streaming service works well, is high quality, priced fairly, and not bundled with a bunch of stuff they don't want. I can see Games Workshop's pricing model, where characters are several times more expensive than similarly-sized troopers, being heavily impacted by 3D printing.
|
|
unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
|
Post by unded on May 30, 2018 6:40:44 GMT
I think the key to a digital business model for miniatures is to make sure that getting models legally is convenient and priced appropriately for what they are. People are happy to pay for their Game of Thrones episodes when HBO's streaming service works well, is high quality, priced fairly, and not bundled with a bunch of stuff they don't want... Nailed it. Just for a reference point of how far PP has to go, the minis we buy are twice the price per mini compared to even GeeDub. If people begin to separate their products into two distinct product offerings (Game and Minis), then the mini side really needs an overhaul going forward.
|
|
|
Post by beardmonk on May 30, 2018 8:41:44 GMT
I think the key to a digital business model for miniatures is to make sure that getting models legally is convenient and priced appropriately for what they are. People are happy to pay for their Game of Thrones episodes when HBO's streaming service works well, is high quality, priced fairly, and not bundled with a bunch of stuff they don't want... Nailed it. Just for a reference point of how far PP has to go, the minis we buy are twice the price per mini compared to even GeeDub. If people begin to separate their products into two distinct product offerings (Game and Minis), then the mini side really needs an overhaul going forward. TBH this is one of the reasons why I though that Recasts will begin to become an issue/thing in WM/H. The cost of the new models is fairly outrageous. I am buying my stuff almost exclusively from ebay or at conventions for a massive discount. I cant justify £70 odd for 10 plastic models. The price of keeping up with this game and buying theme lists is a massive barrier to the game.
|
|
unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
|
Post by unded on May 30, 2018 10:04:18 GMT
Agreed.
Miniature gaming has never been a cheap hobby, but when we're losing Vets who play multiple systems over the comparative cost of expanding collections (this is my experience, yours may differ although I suspect not) then something really needs a harsh re-evaluation. I'm hoping printing / casting can be seen as an opportunity for PP, since they're already in a dodgy position even without the threat that new technology poses.
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 30, 2018 10:09:06 GMT
Agreed. Miniature gaming has never been a cheap hobby, but when we're losing Vets who play multiple systems over the comparative cost of expanding collections (this is my experience, yours may differ although I suspect not) then something really needs a harsh re-evaluation. I'm hoping printing / casting can be seen as an opportunity for PP, since they're already in a dodgy position even without the threat that new technology poses.Do you have any info to support this? My gut tells me PP are struggling financially, but I have no way of knowing for sure, as I cannot find any annual statements.
|
|
zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
|
Post by zich on May 30, 2018 10:10:18 GMT
That's probably because there are no annual statements.
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 30, 2018 10:19:41 GMT
That's probably because there are no annual statements. At least no public ones. Here in the UK Ltd Companies have to publish their yearly statements on Companies House, which are freely available for anyone to view. Probably works differently in the US
|
|
unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
|
Post by unded on May 30, 2018 13:33:21 GMT
To be clear, I have no special information.
Just personal (by definition anecdotal) observations of the trends in my local community, coupled with comparisons of model price points using information available to the public.
I don’t know if PP are feeling the pinch, but I’d be quite surprised if they weren’t
|
|
gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
|
Post by gmonkey on May 30, 2018 13:40:36 GMT
That's probably because there are no annual statements. At least no public ones. Here in the UK Ltd Companies have to publish their yearly statements on Companies House, which are freely available for anyone to view. Probably works differently in the US Ugh, yeah. I've heard about Companies House. In the U.S., I think publicly traded companies publish that stuff, but not private ones.
|
|
|
Post by NephMakes on May 30, 2018 14:17:42 GMT
Just for a reference point of how far PP has to go, the minis we buy are twice the price per mini compared to even GeeDub. Are they? I suppose it matters a lot what you compare and where you are, but for things I've looked into it doesn't shake out like that. For MSRP in US$: Privateer Press: - Troopers ~$6 each (Satyxis Raiders)
- Heavies $35-65 (Slayer multikit, Deathjack)
- Small-base solos $10-$16 (Soul Trapper, Aiakos1)
- Small-base casters $12-18 (Skarre1, Deneghra2)
Games Workshop: - Troopers $4-$8 each (Genestealers, Genestealer Cult Neophytes, Genestealer Cult Acolytes)
- Heavies $30-$40 (Genestealer Broodlord, Sentinel)
- Small solos $25 (Genestealer Cult Acolyte Iconward)
|
|
|
Post by hocestbellum on May 30, 2018 14:46:02 GMT
UK price comparison:
* Satyxis = £46 for 10 * Ogrun = £42 for 5 * Slayer multikit = £30 * Soul Trapper = £15 for 2, Aikos £12
* Genestealers = £18 for 8 (Hormagaunts are £18 for 10) Space Marines are £30 for 10 * Terminators = £28 for 5 * Broodlord = £25 * Couldn't find a small tyranid, but most things in that region are £12-14.
So in the UK at least PP is getting massacred on the multi-model boxes
|
|
|
Post by NephMakes on May 30, 2018 15:06:07 GMT
I don't know how cost of living translates, but in straight exchange rates the main difference appears to be that GW stuff is much cheaper in the UK. GW's stuff is manufactured in the UK I believe, so it might be tariffs or government incentives to not produce it in China.
I wonder if a digital miniature business would make "international" sales cheaper. Aren't PP prices in Australia and New Zealand really high? Even Canada has to pay more than stores just across the border.
|
|
|
Post by HubertJFarnsworth on May 30, 2018 15:33:47 GMT
Can we please not go down the pricing rabbit hole again? We already had a huge thread that went off the rails and got locked over it like a month ago. I'm really enjoying the discussion about 3d printing for terrain and possibly minis going forward and there hasn't been any of the salt that will inevitably come from comparing PP and GW.
|
|