boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
|
Post by boozy on May 9, 2018 23:27:53 GMT
I never used or owned pirated models (probably because I managed to get all I wanted in MK2 before the disasterous price risings started), but I can't really judge people who use them. What urges people to go to forgers, some of the issues: - Spam meta. The first explosive growth of forging I remeber was the Runes of War abomination of a theme force. Then it just went on - Bradigus, Griffin spam, etc.etc. - A problem related to the previous one, conversions. While not very often, people hate their spam army looking all the same, and PP offerns from little to no options of model customisation. And let's not forget about the metal problem (more of it follows). Enter the forgers - buy one light warjack, get it to the forger, have 7 more back, with spare parts that you are not afraid to cut, bend, rearrange and customise as you want. - Another problem related to both former ones - METAL. I have nothing against metal minies, but I quickly learned that I am but a part of thin minority. People hate it with passion, and rightfully so, (especially with armies like Trollbloods, but any cavalry and warjacks suffice as well). Because of weight, chipping, fragility, conversion difficulties, PP sometimes wyrd(pun intended) model segmentation... you know, METAL. And enter the forgers again - have all the same, but in resin, sometimes with BETTER detalisation (sharper edges) and cheaper. - Faction hopping. Now that's an issue that irks me to heck and back, but many people are sure that the only way to play WMH is to be super competitive, know how to play all factions (or at least the factions that are top tier for the moment) to be a pro, and then choose one most broken to PWN everyone. Until the meta changes with a new book|errata and in MK3 with another CID. Then change faction/list ASAP and PWN again. Buy the new army every time? Even with pawning off your old army it's a huge hassle. Especially if your LGS does not have all the models you need (or if you have an LGS at all and not bound to web orders only, even more if they be overseas orders). Borrowing - same problems, adds some of its own. Hello forgers! Take our money. And it feels like PP urges these things, with MK3 contantly shifting meta and spammachine glorified. - Huge Models. This was kind of a mystery for me before, but I guess mostly related to the former issue. But now, with the dawn of BAHI, I wonder who is gonna buy more BAHI models - honest players who want to "supprt PP" with loadsamoney, or forgers, who want to support everybody else and make some profit on it. - PP pricing. Hundreds of spears have been broken over this matter already, so everyone knows about it. - Moral side... guess it's kind of like with the pirated CD's with games and music. I want to praise Miafan for this thoughtful breakdown, and I agree to his listed concerns regarding why people use pirated intellectual property vendors. The contrary position, however, was given de minimis treatment. I highly advise anyone to get to know an artist or creator that lives on intellectual property rights. PP is privately held, so there's no publically available data about their financials. I'd be surprised though if their artists were living high on the hog, especially at Bellevue prices. I get why people do it. The hobby is expensive, metal can suck, conversions are fun, and for some crazy reason PP thinks people want to buy Satyxis with a dozen pieces per model. Artists, writers and the like usually live lean in order to work their passion. Cutting into their IP isn't the same thing as planting Monsanto soybeans.
|
|
Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
|
Post by Ganso on May 9, 2018 23:49:52 GMT
it's hard to apply a "One Size Fits All" value judgement on something like this. Even the Video Game Industry had to adjust their expectations on certain foreign markets to avoid losing customers to unscrupulous competitors. One cool thing about living in Latin America is that I get to buy Steam Games dirt cheap! Not to mention that we get big Hollywood Blockbuster premiers sometimes a week early.
In the most pragmatic point of view, Black Markets are just filling a void.
That said, I think that if you have the means and the product is easily available, buying pirated things is not cool. But I don't know if I can muster indignation if someone living on fraction of a 1st Worlders salary decides to buy a recast for pennies on the dollar.
|
|
|
Post by Soul Samurai on May 10, 2018 3:16:12 GMT
Concerning the price issue, it's generally easier to sell knock-offs for cheaper because you don't have to pay for the original design the way the I.P. owner does, so you have less set-up costs.
|
|
|
Post by beardmonk on May 10, 2018 8:31:32 GMT
One of the factors that would drive people towards recasts (or out of the game) is how essential to a list the expensive models are.
To use the 40K example from my OP, people are buying recasts of Forgeworld models because they make it more of an “insta-win” if you have them and many many players are now including them in their lists. Get one or fall behind. Pay-to-win.
Now I don’t think that WM/H is in the same boat, but certain popular casters often make use of huge base models in their competitive lists. Trolls for example make great use of their 3 Kings and Battle Engines. The Khador Colossals were buffed in their recent CID. Plus on top of that as others have said Character Jacks/Beasts are quite expensive in £££ and so are most of the new releases. Northkin Raiders are £68 for 10 plastic/resin models!! Blighted Trolkin Marauders are £70!! If I wanted to keep up with the new models etc I could not justify that cost. But I could justify paying under half price for a resculpt if my morals would let me buy some.
As the new models are often tied to themes and/or are essential to those themes. It just feels like PP is creating an environment where people are more likely to turn to pirated models.
|
|
Miafan
Junior Strategist
Eater of Brains
Posts: 130
|
Post by Miafan on May 10, 2018 11:31:11 GMT
One of the factors that would drive people towards recasts (or out of the game) is how essential to a list the expensive models are. ... As the new models are often tied to themes and/or are essential to those themes. It just feels like PP is creating an environment where people are more likely to turn to pirated models. Another factor here, is how easily these models may become worthless. Again, I remember Runes of War era - people mostly forged trolls because of the metal weight, but when they got hit by a nerfbat, all that Runeshaper spam suddenly became a useless deadweight. And powerplayers realised, that next time a new super list hits (for example, Virus2 Griffin spam or there was some crap on elemental trolls with Calandra later), they have (have, because they are, well, powerplayers) to spend their money on all that spam only to eventually find it useless as soon as PP sells enough Griffins. And unlike just swapping lists with sellling excessive models, pawning off a spam of now-useless models is almost impossible (unless you apply the ways of MTG novice treatment, when you convince some rookie that this stuff is bee's knees and they just MUST have it. But violence may occur, when the truth comes out...). For forgers it was like Christmas coming super early, be blessed PP, live long.
|
|
|
Post by elladan52 on May 10, 2018 11:40:30 GMT
I feel like it's disingenuous to cast aspersions on "power players" from a perspective that purchasing illegally produced miniatures is ok.
I mean, I get that sometimes things are too expensive. But it's not like you are stealing bread to feed your family, you are stealing (or at least aiding others in stealing) so you can enjoy your hobby. Do what you want, but let's call a spade a spade.
|
|
gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
|
Post by gmonkey on May 10, 2018 13:18:26 GMT
Just keep in mind that it's in all of our interest to keep Privateer Press in business. Without the constant tweaks, nerfs, buffs, yearly Steamrollers, and new models they're putting out, we wouldn't have this hobby we all love. It's tempting to get that $75 unit on the cheap, but if enough people do that, the game dies.
|
|
Miafan
Junior Strategist
Eater of Brains
Posts: 130
|
Post by Miafan on May 10, 2018 13:29:57 GMT
Just keep in mind that it's in all of our interest to keep Privateer Press in business. Without the constant tweaks, nerfs, buffs, yearly Steamrollers, and new models they're putting out, we wouldn't have this hobby we all love. It's tempting to get that $75 unit on the cheap, but if enough people do that, the game dies. Absolutely true, but the same goes for PP. If they put the game in a state when people rather buy it from forgers, that means something is going kinda wrong. You can say "people will always do it!" but I remember well, that at least for the first two thirds of MK2 noone would even think about making out with pirates for WMH models, for any reason. While forgers were quite available. Though I guess the third factor - and main problem here - is bloody international fees.
|
|
|
Post by smoothcriminal on May 10, 2018 14:31:43 GMT
It's the only thing that keeps game alive in my area. I don't know how otherwise are you supposed to keep up with buying hundreds of dollars worth of models every time PP decides to rebalance things around (which is like every two months nowadays) and then paint them. You can have several changes happen in a span of one delivery+paint, so I just gave up on originals.
Also some old PP metal models are godawful, they actually look and assemble better as fakes.
Also spam. If PP doesn't care about spam armies being good competitively I sure don't care about how it looks because all spam armies look boring, might as well play proxy bases since you know there is no artistic merit behind a spam army, only pure number crunching.
|
|
|
Post by elladan52 on May 10, 2018 14:40:35 GMT
It's the only thing that keeps game alive in my area. I don't know how otherwise are you supposed to keep up with buying hundreds of dollars worth of models every time PP decides to rebalance things around (which is like every two months nowadays) and then paint them. You can have several changes happen in a span of one delivery+paint, so I just gave up on originals. Also some old PP metal models are godawful, they actually look and assemble better as fakes. Also spam. If PP doesn't care about spam armies being good competitively I sure don't care about how it looks because all spam armies look boring, might as well play proxy bases since you know there is no artistic merit behind a spam army, only pure number crunching. So all that makes it ok to steal it, right? And enable those that do?
|
|
|
Post by GumbaFish on May 10, 2018 14:50:32 GMT
Bottom line is that recasting miniatures would be considered illegal in many countries. The morality of doing it is up to you, but legally I think its pretty clear where it stands. Increasing prices will go hand in hand with people justifying why they did it an incentivize people to recast and sell them. Making products that people feel are worth their cost will disincentivize it.
|
|
crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
|
Post by crimsyn on May 10, 2018 15:09:29 GMT
Concerning the price issue, it's generally easier to sell knock-offs for cheaper because you don't have to pay for the original design the way the I.P. owner does, so you have less set-up costs. Not to mention that for wargaming models, someone has to pay the people who write the rules. Moreso now that PP has moved away from books.
|
|
|
Post by copperflame on May 10, 2018 15:09:33 GMT
Bottom line is that recasting miniatures would be considered illegal in many countries. The morality of doing it is up to you, but legally I think its pretty clear where it stands. Increasing prices will go hand in hand with people justifying why they did it an incentivize people to recast and sell them. Making products that people feel are worth their cost will disincentivize it. I agree... I wonder if we are seeing the same pains that the music industry saw when Napster was an alternative to buying CD's. (Man... I feel old) Note: I love the game and would like to play it well into the future.
|
|
crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
|
Post by crimsyn on May 10, 2018 15:22:15 GMT
It's the only thing that keeps game alive in my area. I don't know how otherwise are you supposed to keep up with buying hundreds of dollars worth of models every time PP decides to rebalance things around (which is like every two months nowadays) and then paint them. You can have several changes happen in a span of one delivery+paint, so I just gave up on originals. Also some old PP metal models are godawful, they actually look and assemble better as fakes. Also spam. If PP doesn't care about spam armies being good competitively I sure don't care about how it looks because all spam armies look boring, might as well play proxy bases since you know there is no artistic merit behind a spam army, only pure number crunching. Hmmm, I must be doing it wrong then, because I’m not buying hundreds of dollars of models every two months, and I know lots of people who are in the same boat. If you are spending hundreds of dollars every couple months to chase the latest netlist because either you have a really short attention span or you aren’t having fun unless you’re playing the most broken thing in the game, then that’s a choice you are making, not a requirement of the game. And I would also question whether that is a choice that is good for your development as a player — JVM didn’t get to where he is by selling his army and switching factions all the time. Even most of the things that got nerfed are still good, once you get beyond the psychological barrier of “they toned down the broken-ass parts, so it must be unplayable trash.” I don’t think anything has been completely Mad Dogged since, well, Mad Dogs. Also, the idea that spam armies look boring is only your personal opinion. A lot of people find well-painted, uniform models to look more attractive than an army that mixes pikemen and winter guards. I recently started putting an Armoured Corps list with double Shocktroopers and double Drakhuns on the table, and I think that big brick of well-painted MoW looks very attractive — more attractive than if I mixed in some random pikemen or winter guard.
|
|
crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
|
Post by crimsyn on May 10, 2018 15:32:01 GMT
So all that makes it ok to steal it, right? And enable those that do? IMHO, the one thing worse than recasts is people who buy recasts and then get self-righteous about it. I think it is actually a defence mechanism. People know they are in the wrong, but they come up with excuses. If you say “I only buy recasts because those jerks at (manufacturer of originals) deserve it because of (some weak justification),” loud enough, then you might actually convince yourself that you are morally justified.
|
|