Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on May 31, 2018 1:51:08 GMT
wseraphim since you mentioned Denny3, she is a caster that needs to be fixed. Of course I may just not understand how to use her, but I really don’t see how to make her competitive. Likewise, I’ve struggled over how to make IM work, and even if Cryx is the 1%, I still don’t think that makes it ok to have a theme and models that are trash. Better to not have them at all in my opinion. I think that across all the factions, there are models that need significant help, not huge buffs, just a little editing would make a big difference and not break the game.
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Post by grotsnik on May 31, 2018 4:39:16 GMT
Imo gang for mcthralls would be too much,but how about non mechanithrall thrall models get flank (mechanithrall) like the steelhead cavalry... or maybe that is also too much. Also I think allowing biles to ambush would also be quite strong as they will be denying 32" of the board. I would like to see: -veteran leader (mcthrall) back on the necrosurgeon -+2 rat for biles (so they can actually do something besides exploding) or lower their cost -+1 rat bloats -allow medium and small base character solos for free -lower the cost of the sepulcher/give it extra range/give it an aura for thralls/give it extra abilitys to use corpses -change hyper aggreive, the idea of beggining with souls is very good, another one that Ive been thinking about is allowing models that come back to attack (like old recursion) it would make biles very good again (though by having the spray and not the semicircle now I think it would not be as oppressive as it was in mkii) and mcthrall+necrosurgeon would be a much more appealing choice
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Post by Gamingdevil on May 31, 2018 8:49:17 GMT
Lists for reference: Assuming a list where you go all in on dude spam in both lists Dark Host gets you: conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0B0WkA1919i22k2ki4i4h-h_h-h_h-h_Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Dark Host [Terminus 1] Lich Lord Terminus [+27] - Barathrum [15] - Deathripper [6] - Deathripper [6] Bane Lord Tartarus [0(6)] Machine Wraith [2] Machine Wraith [2] Bane Knights (min) [9] Bane Knights (min) [9] Bane Warriors (max) [16] - Bane Warrior Officer & Standard [0(5)] Bane Warriors (max) [16] - Bane Warrior Officer & Standard [0(5)] Bane Warriors (max) [16] - Bane Warrior Officer & Standard [5] While Infernal Machines gets you: conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0w0WkA19192klP19i1dQi1i1i1i1i1i11F1FCryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Infernal Machines [Terminus 1] Lich Lord Terminus [+27] - Barathrum [15] - Deathripper [6] - Deathripper [6] Machine Wraith [2] Warwitch Initiate Deneghra [4] - Deathripper [6] Mechanithralls (max) [9] - Skarlock Commander [0(3)] Mechanithralls (max) [9] Mechanithralls (max) [9] Mechanithralls (max) [9] Mechanithralls (max) [9] Mechanithralls (max) [9] Mechanithralls (max) [9] Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls [0(4)] Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls [0(4)] The conversation took an interesting turn. Lets start with Dellers Terminus lists. My original point still stands as both of those lists just do better (in my opinion) with any of our viable casters. This is especially true of the Dark host version because you took 3 UA's for the warriors anyways, pretty much removing the one reason to play Terminus. The problem with Dark Host is that with many casters (the ones that don't care about the Skarlock), taking Tartarus and 2 Bane Warrior attachments is all there is to get for free, as the other options are Machine Wraiths which are better to just pay for. The CA is still immensely valuable though as it gives Rise, a great attrition mini-feat and 2 extra able bodies. It also allows you to let the unit wander from Terminus while he keeps the rest of your army safe. That being said, I would argue that the list is not optimal for Terminus at all. It's true that Warriors are slightly more cost effective at max than min units, but I would still recommend taking min units: they're more mobile, less susceptible to control spells such as Rebuke and Terminus doesn't have any buffs for them that benefit from having max units. It's also a mistake not to take a Wraith Engine. Banes have naturally high armour and adding 2 to that, in addition to having Tough lets them shrug off loads of shooting. The Wraith Engine itself is also a great charge lane blocker for Terminus and gets Tough (with no knockdown). Going full dude spam just because you can isn't always the best choice (as also proven with the IM list) I also don't really like Barathrum with him, even though he is a great jack, but his freedom of movement is very limited with all that infantry swarming around Terminus already. But that's a matter of preference.
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Post by tiberius on May 31, 2018 10:24:10 GMT
I'd like to see "all soul takers start game with soul" benefit instead of hyper-aggressive. Just imagine - all our soul-powered abilities works! Malice, able to posess jacks again, hellslinger becoming actual threat, denny3 using her abilities outside of feat, incorporeal soulhunters on approach.. I really like this suggestion, as I see it as a big faction weakness to rely on what other people bring to the fight. How do the tharn in Circle do it? Their theme gives them corpse tokens right?
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Post by Gamingdevil on May 31, 2018 10:53:23 GMT
I'd like to see "all soul takers start game with soul" benefit instead of hyper-aggressive. Just imagine - all our soul-powered abilities works! Malice, able to posess jacks again, hellslinger becoming actual threat, denny3 using her abilities outside of feat, incorporeal soulhunters on approach.. I really like this suggestion, as I see it as a big faction weakness to rely on what other people bring to the fight. How do the tharn in Circle do it? Their theme gives them corpse tokens right? It does. I do really miss Malice starting off with a soul, having a theme granting one would be amazing, not to mention a reason to play in that theme instead of just going for BI if you want jacks. So we all agree on starting with souls and any small based Thrall unit being able to gain ambush, as well as taking small and medium bases as free options? All in favour say "Aye". Motion passed, get on this PPS_Strawman.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Jun 1, 2018 0:45:16 GMT
Lists for reference: Assuming a list where you go all in on dude spam in both lists Dark Host gets you: conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0B0WkA1919i22k2ki4i4h-h_h-h_h-h_Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Dark Host [Terminus 1] Lich Lord Terminus [+27] - Barathrum [15] - Deathripper [6] - Deathripper [6] Bane Lord Tartarus [0(6)] Machine Wraith [2] Machine Wraith [2] Bane Knights (min) [9] Bane Knights (min) [9] Bane Warriors (max) [16] - Bane Warrior Officer & Standard [0(5)] Bane Warriors (max) [16] - Bane Warrior Officer & Standard [0(5)] Bane Warriors (max) [16] - Bane Warrior Officer & Standard [5] While Infernal Machines gets you: conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0w0WkA19192klP19i1dQi1i1i1i1i1i11F1FCryx Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Infernal Machines [Terminus 1] Lich Lord Terminus [+27] - Barathrum [15] - Deathripper [6] - Deathripper [6] Machine Wraith [2] Warwitch Initiate Deneghra [4] - Deathripper [6] Mechanithralls (max) [9] - Skarlock Commander [0(3)] Mechanithralls (max) [9] Mechanithralls (max) [9] Mechanithralls (max) [9] Mechanithralls (max) [9] Mechanithralls (max) [9] Mechanithralls (max) [9] Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls [0(4)] Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls [0(4)] The conversation took an interesting turn. Lets start with Dellers Terminus lists. My original point still stands as both of those lists just do better (in my opinion) with any of our viable casters. This is especially true of the Dark host version because you took 3 UA's for the warriors anyways, pretty much removing the one reason to play Terminus. The problem with Dark Host is that with many casters (the ones that don't care about the Skarlock), taking Tartarus and 2 Bane Warrior attachments is all there is to get for free, as the other options are Machine Wraiths which are better to just pay for. The CA is still immensely valuable though as it gives Rise, a great attrition mini-feat and 2 extra able bodies. It also allows you to let the unit wander from Terminus while he keeps the rest of your army safe. That being said, I would argue that the list is not optimal for Terminus at all. It's true that Warriors are slightly more cost effective at max than min units, but I would still recommend taking min units: they're more mobile, less susceptible to control spells such as Rebuke and Terminus doesn't have any buffs for them that benefit from having max units. It's also a mistake not to take a Wraith Engine. Banes have naturally high armour and adding 2 to that, in addition to having Tough lets them shrug off loads of shooting. The Wraith Engine itself is also a great charge lane blocker for Terminus and gets Tough (with no knockdown). Going full dude spam just because you can isn't always the best choice (as also proven with the IM list) I also don't really like Barathrum with him, even though he is a great jack, but his freedom of movement is very limited with all that infantry swarming around Terminus already. But that's a matter of preference. I’m aware those aren’t the ideal lists, my initial point was that Terminus doesn’t care about this “10 point Deneghra tax” taking away from the amount of chaff in the list. Even with the “Deneghra tax” you can afford more bodies in an IM build than in a Dark Host build, especially once you start taking Banes out of the list to add in the Wraith Engine they desperately want. Yes, Banes have Ghostly & +2 Mat. They also only have a maximum of one attack each while McThralls have the option to take multiple attacks at a lower power. Yes, Dark Host is better with the Wraith Engine, but IM can take an Engine too if they really wanted, and it doesn’t hurt them nearly as badly since they had more chaff in the first place. Take Aaron Wale’s list from his 1st place Cancon Champions finish conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0U0B1w191x1f1f0te2332kf0f02B2B3232___-0B0WkAd-i22E2nf0h-h_h-h_bBbBYou can port the exact same list into Infernal Machines replacing Bane Warriors & Tartarus with McThralls, Deneghra0, & a Deathripper: conflictchamber.com/#c4201b_-0w0WkAd-2E2nf0lP19i0i1i1bBbBEven just doing an exact port, before any additional adjustments the IM list already has slightly more bodies despite the fact it gets less free cards, is using it’s one free card suboptimally, & has to pay for Deneghra0. Terminus will have more bodies to deliver him in IM than he will in Dark Host. Deneghra0 makes those bodies in IM just as effective as the bodies in Dark Host at killing things. Deneghra0 is a very real incentive to look at Infernal Machines with some casters, Terminus being one of them.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 1, 2018 6:44:16 GMT
Deller I was pretty much defending you against drach42 and then elaborating, I quoted the lists for reference. I know you were being academic and I still don't agree with playing Terminus in Infernal Machines over Dark Host, mainly because Banes are more reliable at killing things, especially the things that can actually hurt Terminus (heavies and weapon masters) But like I said before, your mileage may vary and I definitely won't stop you from playing him in IM.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Jun 1, 2018 17:56:56 GMT
Deller I was pretty much defending you against drach42 and then elaborating, I quoted the lists for reference. I know you were being academic and I still don't agree with playing Terminus in Infernal Machines over Dark Host, mainly because Banes are more reliable at killing things, especially the things that can actually hurt Terminus (heavies and weapon masters) But like I said before, your mileage may vary and I definitely won't stop you from playing him in IM. I wasn’t just responding to you, quoting multiple people on this forum is obnoxious & I wanted to post every reply in one post. That said I’m not saying Deneghra0 is going to make Terminus completely jump ship from DH to IM the way the Revenant nerf made him largely jump completely out of GF for DH, but I think her release gives Terminus a compelling reason to leave DH behind, where right now I see absolutely 0 reason to play him anywhere except Dark Host. Dark Host will get more work done & has better quality troops, but IM is significantly better at delivering Terminus thanks to the ability to chain Sac Pawns to the 2 Necrosurgeons who can chain them further away the same way Rengrave does in GF. The problem I’ve had with Terminus in GF is that since the Revenant nerf, you’re pretty much stuck using Terminus & his battlegroup to do all the heavy lifting. Revenants just don’t kill Heavies anymore. IM largely had the same issue as GF, it just takes too many guys over too long a period to actually kill a heavy target, but Deneghra0 changes that. Now they can actually pose a real threat to Heavies while still providing Terminus with a massive Sac Pawn bubble. Now Terminus actually gets to make a choice, would he rather have the troops with better stats & terrain mitigation or would he rather have the better personal protection that still poses a threat. What you pick is likely going to depend on what you’re looking to drop him into.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 4, 2018 6:22:19 GMT
Now Terminus actually gets to make a choice, would he rather have the troops with better stats & terrain mitigation or would he rather have the better personal protection that still poses a threat. What you pick is likely going to depend on what you’re looking to drop him into. I agree with your assessment. However, I would like to note that better quality troops does often mean better protection as well. 12/12 Mechanithralls are much easier to clear than 12-14/18-20 Bane Knights which means they can road block a lot longer. Anyway, I'm not trying to argue out of playing him in Infernal Machines, just noting the caveats that I see.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Jun 4, 2018 19:37:46 GMT
Now Terminus actually gets to make a choice, would he rather have the troops with better stats & terrain mitigation or would he rather have the better personal protection that still poses a threat. What you pick is likely going to depend on what you’re looking to drop him into. I agree with your assessment. However, I would like to note that better quality troops does often mean better protection as well. 12/12 Mechanithralls are much easier to clear than 12-14/18-20 Bane Knights which means they can road block a lot longer. Anyway, I'm not trying to argue out of playing him in Infernal Machines, just noting the caveats that I see. While the McThralls are definitely easier to clear, there’s also a difference between having to clear every Bane Knight within 3” of Terminus & having to clear every McThrall, Stitch Thrall, & Necrosurgeon within 3” of Terminus & each McThrall & Stitch within 3” of the Necrosurgeons that are exactly 3” away from Terminus on either side. The Sac Pawn bubble in IM can be twice the Size of the one in Dark Host so while yes, the troops are a lot easier to kill, they can fit a lot more in the area.
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rolle
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 8
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Post by rolle on Mar 12, 2020 5:28:17 GMT
I apologize for raising the topic from the dead, but I really like Terminus and I would love to play him and after Oblivion BI and IM themes merge and has changed significantly (free brute thrall, hellslinger phantom, carapace on haveys etc.), so I wonder what you think the Terminus list should look now?
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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 12, 2020 7:32:16 GMT
I apologize for raising the topic from the dead, but I really like Terminus and I would love to play him and after Oblivion BI and IM themes merge and has changed significantly (free brute thrall, hellslinger phantom, carapace on haveys etc.), so I wonder what you think the Terminus list should look now? For the future, it might be best if you make a separate thread for this, but as an agent of the Dragonfather I can only approve of your necromantic skills. On to your question, many people don't feel like Terminus belongs with the Thralls. That's mostly because Thralls are kind of bad and he supports Revenants and Banes just as well. The Ghost Fleet theme offers even better recursion than Black Industries does, because it's built-in and allows for actions, while Dark Host is also entirely made up of undead, with some built-in recursion from the Bane Warrior Officer and much more durable models. An additional benefit to Dark Host is that the models in this theme don't really need any support, of which Terminus brings none anyway, to kill hard targets, that would be able to hurt Terminus. Personally I prefer to play him in Dark Host, but many people swear by Ghost Fleet. If you are set on Black Industries, a Sepulcher would add additional recursion and can be a cute target for the Ravager spell. A typical list would probably start with a Wraith Engine and a minimal battle group of your choice, then cram as much undead in the list as you possibly can.
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Post by tiberius on Mar 12, 2020 11:04:47 GMT
Yes, the purpose of a Terminus list is something to deliver Terminus to the opposing warcaster and let him beat them to a pulp, so you need to think about self sufficient models that can protect him and help deliver him. That is one reason people like him in Ghost Fleet, with access to someone like Rengrave who can take the ranged shots from sacrificial pawn and pass them on to auto-recurring zombie pirates, effectively increasing the range on Terminus's ranged protection. In dark host, you have access to Darragh Wrath who can both protect Terminus from living models and/or make him go faster. The wraith engine increases Terminus's armor vs ranged and magical attacks. I also love using Madelyn Corbeau with him to basically make him untouchable by any warrior model through her parlay ability. Though using a group like the withershadow combine is definitely worth it too for the free upkeep and the re-roll.
For warjacks, a colossal isn't bad, as is any self feeding warjack like deathjack or super efficient warjacks like a seether. Terminus wants his focus and does not want to give it to anything. A warwitch siren or two go a long way in a Terminus list as well.
For units, as was pointed out, his aura of death gives undead tough. So the more undead hordes you bring, the more mileage you get out of it.
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rolle
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 8
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Post by rolle on Mar 13, 2020 6:02:39 GMT
Thank you all for replys!
I'am not set on BI, I just saw that he was very often part of BI lists so I thought due with the recent changes that this maybe has become the case again. Unfortunately I still don't have models for Ghost Fleet, but practically everything for BI and DH, so in any case Dark Host it is.
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