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Post by xskeletalx on Apr 18, 2018 18:00:47 GMT
I'm participating in my very first Journeyman League, and I'm hoping for a little advice in list building. I assumed my ending 75 point list could be completely comprised of whatever I want, but as it turns out I need to include the Chimera, Manticore, and Griffon from the starting battlegroup, though I can change my caster on Week 4. I was going to run the Kaelyssa double Sentinels list I've posted previously, but the warjacks are entirely different! I'm considering running the following list, but I can't decide whether this is actually decent, or I'm just mis-valuing how everything would work together. conflictchamber.com/#c5201b_-0hg01g2w0v0v0u9v3y3y3y3W4L0w3M3MhMhMRetribution Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Forges of War (Helynna 1) Magister Helynna [+30] - Chimera [8] - Griffon [8] - Manticore [14] - Manticore [14] - Phoenix [18] - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker [0(4)] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios [0(7)] House Shyeel Artificer [0(5)] - Hydra [15] House Shyeel Magister [4] House Shyeel Magister [4] House Shyeel Arcanists [7] House Shyeel Arcanists [7] Do you feel this list will suffer without combat units? Should I rearrange this to include a unit of Battle Mages (which I don't own)? I'll already need to buy the units of Arcanists and an Artificer. Should I run out of theme so I can include a better mix of models? I really wish I was able to bring my Vyre jacks into this list, my Banshee and pair of Harpies are going to have to watch sadly from the sidelines!
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dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on Apr 19, 2018 21:08:02 GMT
I have run Helynna with a ton of Shyeel 'jacks a while ago but found that a single unit of Arcanists (plus the three Solos) was sufficient to cover my focus needs.
On the other hand, the list became much more effective when I added Lanyssa Ryssyl for free charges and extra threat range. I even preferred her over Eiryss1.
If you are curious, I can try to dig up the exact list.
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Post by xskeletalx on Apr 20, 2018 16:17:00 GMT
I wouldn't mind seeing what you came up with, and hearing what your experience was with its strengths and downsides! I'm also considering running an unthemed Elara2 list, and the only additional purchase I'd need to make would be a second unit of Stormfall archers. conflictchamber.com/#c5201bgx1g2w0v0u3y3y3y3X3X2V313u3x3xRetribution Army - 75 / 75 points (Elara 2) Elara, Death's Shadow [+28] - Chimera [8] - Griffon [8] - Manticore [14] - Phoenix [18] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Mage Hunter Assassin [4] Mage Hunter Assassin [4] Dawnguard Sentinels (max) [18] - Dawnguard Sentinel Officer & Standard [4] - Soulless Escort (1) [1] Stormfall Archers [9] Stormfall Archers [9] The plan here would be to go for a strong alpha strike with the Sentinels, and use the Stormfall units to take Brutal shots at hard targets or light single wound infantry on fire. I think there's a reasonable opportunity for this list to play into armor or infantry, between Elara's feat, DEF debuff, and armor debuff.
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dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on Apr 21, 2018 8:52:57 GMT
Ok, I dug up the list. It went through a couple of changes (I tried a more shooty variety, for instance, to abuse Helynna's Upkeeps) so this version is not necessarily optimised.
Retribution of Scyrah - Helynna jacks
Theme: Forges of War 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Magister Helynna - WJ: +30 - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker - PC: 0 - Chimera - PC: 8 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Griffon - PC: 8 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Griffon - PC: 8 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Hydra - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6) - Manticore - PC: 14 - Manticore - PC: 14 - Phoenix - PC: 18 - Aspis - PC: 6
Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2 Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2 Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2 House Shyeel Artificer - PC: 0 Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress - PC: 0
House Shyeel Arcanists - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7 - Soulless Escort - PC: 1
In general, the list got much better when I added Lanyssa to help with threat and damage. Before adding her, enemy Colossals, for example, were a pain. I have not played this for a while but I would expect it to have trouble with clouds (like Kolgrima and Trenchers) and the new infantry-heavy Cryx lists. I mainly faced Cygnar, Circle and Minions at the time and notably no Haley3.
I try to load up the Hydra with focus turn 1 and use the guns to firce the enemy to come close enough to engage. If something is sufficiently scary, I would feed it a Griffon and focus on the other flank. I played for attrition and scenario.
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Post by xskeletalx on Apr 23, 2018 15:54:56 GMT
With Week 1 down, I thought it was worth a quick update.
For those who do not know, the first week of a Journeyman League consists of only the Battlegroup box contents, and you must carry those models in your army through the entire length of the League, with the exception of the Warcaster/Warlock, who you can change in Week 4.
My very first League opponent, Mason, is also playing Retribution. So we both had Magister Hylenna, a Griffon, a Chimera, and a Manticore. I will say this particular mirror match isn't very fun; this match felt like playing chicken until one player or the other could land Hand of Destruction. My dice failed me miserably throughout this whole match, though Mason did mention that my plans were solid. The final turn saw me with only a half-wrecked Chimera and Hylenna, who was untouched. I used my Chimera to headbutt Mason's Griffon, and moved Hylenna next to his caster. I had a full stack of focus, and Mason had none; unfortunately, between boosting attack rolls and buying attacks, I missed one attack entirely and rolled low on one of the damage rolls, and I conceded after running out of focus. I feel confident enough in HOW I played and strategized, the dice just weren't friendly.
My second opponent, Paul, was playing Cryx. I haven't played against Agathia, so it was fun to get a chance to see what a new caster could do. I caught his Deathripper (under Hand of Destruction) with a boosted Obliteration arced through my Chimera during my second turn, breaking both its movement and cortex, then wrecked it with a charge from the Chimera the following turn, while running the Griffon into position to threaten both the Reaper and Agathia in an attempt to prevent Paul double-teaming my Manticore (who was moving through the woods towards the Slayer with both heavies. The Slayer, under Ghost Walk, charged Hylenna (who was sitting on two Focus), but missed its attacks, while the Reaper and Agathia took a huge chunk out of my Griffon. On my turn, Hylenna filled up the Chimera and the Manticore. I used a melee attack against the Slayer, pushing it three inches further from Agathia in an attempt to keep it out of her Control. I moved the Griffon (who was out of my Control range) out of melee range of Agathia, who promptly killed it. I used the Manticore to slam the Reaper into Agathia, knocking her down and dealing a decent amount of damage, costing Agathia her final focus. The Chimera charged Agathia (again moving out of my Control) and was able to kill her! I underestimated the Slayer's ability to reach Hylenna, but when it charge her, I was fairly confident that unless Paul's dice were super hot, my two focus would keep me alive. Otherwise, I feel like my plan played out fairly well.
My final match was against my friend and regular opponent, Alex, and his Menoth battlebox. This match went fairly quickly, but had a similar start to my match against Paul. I arced Hand of Destruction and one of Hylenna's attack spells into the Menoth Arc Node (Repenter?), followed up by two shots from the Manticore, again crippling the Arc Node, Cortex, and Movement. The following turn Alex cast Banishing Ward on the Repenter, but the Castigator advanced too far, and I was able to recast Hand of Destruction onto it, and one-round it with my Manticore. The following turn I was able to assassinate Malkeus.
So far, the Griffon has honestly been my most useless model in the League. I've spent more time running it into engagements than getting any really meaningful damage done, but I can certainly see myself doing more with it in future matches. If I decide to stick with Hylenna, it seems clear that HOD is an important spell, and I'll be making sure to fire that off onto important targets as often as possible. I'm getting the hang of using the Chimera's Arc Node, which has been a new concept to me (my main army being Khador).
I'm currently leaning towards the following Elara2 list, as I think it would offer a fair counter to both armor and infantry focused lists, though I think it's possible that high DEF may be a problem.
conflictchamber.com/#c5201b_-0zgx1g2w0v0u3y3y3y3W35363u3x3xhT
Retribution Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Defenders of Ios
(Elara 2) Elara, Death's Shadow [+28] - Chimera [8] - Griffon [8] - Manticore [14] - Phoenix [18] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios [0(7)] Houseguard Halberdiers (max) [13] - Houseguard Halberdier Officer & Standard [0(4)] - Soulless Escort (1) [1] Stormfall Archers [9] Stormfall Archers [9] Arcantrik Force Generator [17]
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Post by xskeletalx on Apr 30, 2018 15:28:20 GMT
My Week 2 update will be very brief, seeing as I only played a single game! As the only things allowed for Week 2 additions are warcaster attachments and warjacks, I knew I'd be playing down in points this week. The only warjack I'm going to add to my final list, a Phoenix, costs 18 points and so will not fit into the first 15 points I'm allowed to add. Therefore, my army for this week is simply Helynna, a Manticore, a Chimera, and a Griffon. Alex added a Crusader to his battlebox, saving the final 5 points, giving him Malkeus, a Crusader, a Castigator, a Revenger, and a Repenter. In our match, my plan was to use the Griffon to try to threaten from the safety of a forest, _just_ more than 3" away from the outer edge so that I could take advantage of having Pathfinder while being protected from charges and ranged/spell attacks. I would then try to leverage hard on Hand Of Destruction, and attempt to eliminate one of his heavies within a single round, then feed either my Griffon or Chimera to the other Menoth Heavy and cycle HOD over there the following turn. Going first, I ran the Fleeted Griffon into the forest on my left, advanced the Chimera halfway behind a house on my right, and the Manticore straight up the middle. Helynna cast Deceleration and Rhythm of War, and advanced up nearly base to base with the Manticore, which ended up being a mistake. On Alex's turn, he advanced forward with everything; the Crusader in front, the Revenger close behind it, the Repenter to my right, and the Castigator hanging back a little ways. Malkeus threw my plans out the window by advancing, casting Ignite on the Crusader, and casting Scourge on my Manticore, knocking both it and Helynna down, and positioning himself to crush my Manticore with most of his battlegroup next turn. He also set Helynna, the Chimera, and the Manticore on fire. Taking a little bit of damage on the Manticore and Chimera, the fire on Helynna went out. I moved the Chimera out from behind the building with Apparition. I knew I had to change my plans, and Malkeus had advanced pretty far forward, without focus, and I had open lines of sight and a single charge lane... Helynna filled the Manticore and Chimera, dropping Rhythm. I ran the Griffon to engage the Revenger and Crusader from behind, and the Castigator from its front. Helynna activated, forfeited movement to stand up, and arced Hand Of Destruction onto Malkeus, but failed to hit, thanks to Ashen Veil! The Manticore spent a focus to stand up, forfeited its movement to aim, and spun up its gun, sadly only rolling a single shot. I used the remaining two focus points to fully boost the shot, hitting and landing six damage. The Chimera charged Malkeus, doing enough damage between his (focus-boosted) charge attack, second initial, and one bought attack to get him down to four boxes! I found myself wishing I had feated, in an attempt to keep my jacks alive since the retaliation of two heavies was bound to hurt. On Alex's turn, the Castigator and Revenger put a large amount of damage onto the Griffon, who only survived thanks to some missed attacks. Malkeus and the Repenter destroyed the Chimera, though it took all of his remaining focus to do so. The Crusader moved forward and blocked the charge lane to Malkeus, doing a fair amount of damage to the Manticore. On my turn, I took a moment to evaluate my options, before fully loading the Manticore. I advanced with Helynna and successfully cast Hand Of Destruction on Malkeus, then boosted a shot against the Crusader, hitting and pushing him three inches away and reopening the charge lane. The Manticore charged Malkeus, boosting the charge attack, and between HOD and boosts, the single charge attack easily hit and killed Malkeus! I went into the match feeling apprehensive, because I knew I was going to have to make every single model count. When he knocked down both my heavy and my caster, I had to scramble and change my plans, but I was able to adapt properly and capitalize on Malkeus being left open. The Manticore's shot and the charging Chimera dealt a ton of damage to Malkeus, and meant I was able to put enough pressure on Alex to make sure he spent his turn trying to save Malkeus rather than crushing me! I was also glad that I was able to work out a solution to get the Manticore into position to finish off Malkeus the next turn, thanks to Helynna's Force Grip. Looking forward to getting my first Week 3 matches in tonight, I'll be running the following list with my 30 additional points; conflictchamber.com/#c5200u_-0zg01g2w0v3y3y3L35363xRetribution Army - 30 / 30 points [Theme] Defenders of Ios (Helynna 1) Magister Helynna [+30] - Chimera [8] - Griffon [8] - Manticore [14] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Fane Knight Skeryth Issyen [0(8)] Houseguard Halberdiers (max) [13] - Houseguard Halberdier Officer & Standard [4] Stormfall Archers [9] Thoughts? Advice? Concerns? I'd love to hear them!
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Post by falkman on Apr 30, 2018 16:11:49 GMT
My Week 2 update will be very brief, seeing as I only played a single game! As the only things allowed for Week 2 additions are warcaster attachments and warjacks, I knew I'd be playing down in points this week. The only warjack I'm going to add to my final list, a Phoenix, costs 18 points and so will not fit into the first 15 points I'm allowed to add. Therefore, my army for this week is simply Helynna, a Manticore, a Chimera, and a Griffon. I’ve been wondering how you were planning on making that final list work. According to the rules of the game you are not allowed to play more than 5 points below the point limit, so you have to add at least one warjack in week two.
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Post by xskeletalx on Apr 30, 2018 18:59:43 GMT
Interesting... I didn't realize that technically I couldn't do that. What is the purpose of that rule in general? I don't really understand the point of preventing someone from playing at a handicap, and filling points has never been an issue outside of the point/model restrictions from the Journeyman rules.
I just assumed I was supposed to be able to carry over whatever I wanted into the following week.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Apr 30, 2018 19:36:01 GMT
I believe that's only a Steamroller rule to prevent gaming Army Points Killed in tiebreakers.
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Post by xskeletalx on Apr 30, 2018 19:37:58 GMT
I believe that's only a Steamroller rule to prevent gaming Army Points Killed in tiebreakers. Does this mean that my original plan is still viable, or do I need to adjust still?
Looked at the rulebook again, and it does specifically state a list cannot be more than 5 points below the chosen list size. Re-adjusted the final list to the following: conflictchamber.com/#c5201b_-0zgx1g2w0w0v3y3y3y4V3L35363x3xhTRetribution Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Defenders of Ios (Elara 2) Elara, Death's Shadow [+28] - Chimera [8] - Griffon [8] - Hydra [15] - Manticore [14] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Eiryss, Angel of Retribution [0(6)] Fane Knight Skeryth Issyen [0(8)] Houseguard Halberdiers (max) [13] - Houseguard Halberdier Officer & Standard [4] Stormfall Archers [9] Stormfall Archers [9] Arcantrik Force Generator [17]
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Post by xskeletalx on May 3, 2018 14:30:14 GMT
My Week Three list is the following: Retribution Army - 28 / 30 points [Theme] Defenders of Ios (Helynna 1) Magister Helynna [+30] - Chimera [8] - Griffon [8] - Manticore [14] - Hydra [15] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Stormfall Archers [9] So far I've played a pair of matches, but I expect to play more this weekend. My first match was against my friend's Menoth; Malkeus - Crusader - Castigator - Repenter - Revenger Flameguard Cleansers [Min] - Flameguard Cleanser Officer Choir of Menoth [Max] Vassal Mechanic I don't know if he was using the Temple theme or not, but I know his eventual plan is to do so. I pushed towards the central zone, and began playing a positioning/gunline strategy. The Manticore and Hydra combined their shooting to chip away at the Crusader, and I used Rhythm Of War to keep my warjacks out of my opponent's threat ranges. Very little actually died this game; I sacrificed my Griffon to keep the Crusader in place one turn, and my Stormfall Archers spent most of their turns trying to pick off the Flameguard Cleansers as they rushed across the board at me. By the end of the game, I had killed half of the unit and the officer, and lost one of my archers. The Crusader murdered the Griffon, which also freed up the Revenger, who ran forward towards my archers. Malkeus advanced and arced a spell at the archers, killing one and knocking another down. At the start of my turn, I noticed that Malkeus was close enough for my Chimera to charge after using Apparition to place forward. Malkeus had one focus, but I knew I was going to be taking a big risk if my assassination didn't work, since I was going to need to commit both of my heavies to shooting, and that would put them in range of Alex's heavies, and Helynna would also be out of focus. I activated Helynna, arcing and boosting Hand Of Destruction onto Malkeus. I then shot at the Crusader, hitting it and pushing it three inches to my right, clearing up the charge lane. The Manticore spun up its gun but could only fire once, dealing some damage but making me a little nervous as I had been hoping for additional shots. The Hydra landed a solid hit, and then the Chimera (under Concentrated Power) charged, using its stack of focus to finish off Malkeus. Picture of the final game state: (and yes, we forgot to place any terrain until we were partway through the first turn, and then decided to just play it flat) In our post-game discussion, Alex took another look at Malkeus' card and realized he'd been forgetting Banishing Ward in our previous games, and that casting it should be a priority in some cases, as it would have allowed Malkeus to remain free of Hand Of Destruction. Had I not been able to cast that onto his caster, I would have spent my turn trying to attrition his heavies instead. In his second game of the night, also against a Ret player, Alex made better decisions on spell use and model placement, and was able to win via attrition. I really enjoy post-game discussion with my opponents, because it helps me to understand what I was doing right, what I could have done better, how my actions changed my opponent's plan, and help them to understand all of the same points as well! My second game of the night was against Rob, one of our brand new players, and his Cygnar force. I've talked with him a lot since the start of the League, and he's picking up the game impressively fast. He learns from his mistakes and adjusts his strategies accordingly, and is enjoying the Warmachine experience so far! Rob's list was as follows; Major Beth Maddox - Ironclad - Lancer - Firefly Journeyman Warcaster - Hunter Storm Lances [Max] My original strategy was to jockey for position and try to outgun Rob, while trying my best to keep my heavies out of the charge range of the Stormlances. The Hunter landed a heavy hit onto my Hydra, and I cast HOD on it with Helynna, deciding that the Armor Piercing gun had to go before I could feel safe about trying to win a gun battle. The Hydra shot the Hunter, boosting damage, and I rolled a 6,6,6,5 under HOD, resulting in a full 18 damage against the Hunter, which I then finished off with my Manticore. Rhythm of War allowed me to keep out of the Stormlances' charge threat for a couple of turns, though it meant I ceded the first two scenario points to Rob. He eventually ran the Stormlances into the center of the zone because I was out of charge range - this allowed me to cast HOD and kill four of them between my Stormfall Archers, Manticore, Hydra, and Chimera. I again sacrificed my Griffon to keep the Ironclad occupied and away from the center of the board. Rob feated and dealt a significant amount of damage to my warjacks, nearly destroying the Hydra and severely damaging and Disrupting the Chimera, though the Manticore was almost completely healthy. He did not use the Beat Back portion of his Feat, which we didn't consider until post-game. In my turn, I cast HOD onto Maddox, then shot the Ironclad and pushed it three inches further towards the left board edge and away from Helynna. An Arcanist used Empower on the Chimera, which then attempted a Headbutt against the Lancer (who is missing from the picture but was standing directly in front of the Chimera at the time) but missed. The Manticore walked up to Maddox, suffering a free strike from the Lancer, which crippled the left arm. I opted to Headbutt Maddox, and knocked her down. Hand Of Destruction again proved to be incredibly strong, and the Manticore mulched the prone Maddox. End Game State: In our post-game discussion, I advised Rob that the Ironclad ended up too far out on my left flank, and that the Griffon wasn't really in too much of a threatening position. I told him that his biggest mistake was running the entire unit of Stormlances into the center, as I would have needed to advance into the zone soon to stop him scoring. If he had not run them in the way he did, I would have had to advance and fire, and if I didn't at least toe the zone he would have scored another two points before I would have another chance to stop him, and so if he held back his cavalry he could have essentially guaranteed I'd advance forward into charge range. Better placement of Maddox and the Ironclad would have prevented my assassination run as well, since the Lancer was already blocking the Manticore's charge, and the Ironclad could have prevented me from being able to _walk_ into Maddox as well. On my side of things, I forgot to Feat three turns in a row. I meant to feat once my force fields were all full, and hoped to cut down on the amount of damage my warjacks had suffered, but instead I kept forgetting to actually use it! I was worried that if I failed my assassination run I would lose my Hydra and Chimera at the very least, and would have lost because of it. I need to be better about being proactive and attentive to using my Feat going forward. I expect I will play at least a couple additional games this weekend, and I'm currently considering this as my final list; conflictchamber.com/#c5201b_-0zg01g2wjs0w0v9v3y3y3y4k35363v3xhTRetribution Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Defenders of Ios (Helynna 1) Magister Helynna [+30] - Chimera [8] - Griffon [8] - Harpy [9] - Hydra [15] - Manticore [14] - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker [0(4)] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress [0(4)] Houseguard Halberdiers (max) [13] - Houseguard Halberdier Officer & Standard [4] - Soulless Escort (2) [2] Stormfall Archers [9] Arcantrik Force Generator [17] Adding the Harpy week 4 allows me to get more mileage out of Hand Of Destruction, and spells will be easier to hit thanks to Sylys. Lanyssa for free charges and increased threat, Halberdiers to play a tarpit or damage dealing role as needed, Harpy and AFG provide ranged damage and utility via knockdowns/difficult terrain. Thoughts?
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Post by xskeletalx on May 10, 2018 15:29:31 GMT
The following will be my Week 4 list: conflictchamber.com/#c5200J_-0zg01g2wjs0w0v9v3y3y4k3xRetribution Army - 45 / 45 points [Theme] Defenders of Ios (Helynna 1) Magister Helynna [+30] - Chimera [8] - Griffon [8] - Harpy [9] - Hydra [15] - Manticore [14] - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker [4] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress [4] Stormfall Archers [9] Additional ranged battlegroup shots (for HOD) from the Harpy, with potential for knockdowns. Sylys will give me a free upkeep, make HOD easier to hit (which is critical for how I've been playing this list). Lanyssa for threat extension and free charges. Should be getting in at least one game this weekend, I will share updates.
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