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Post by Azuresun on Apr 7, 2017 17:13:11 GMT
A list that's been tearing stuff up locally has been Vlad1 + four random jacks + lots of min Winterguard Rifle Corps with three Rocketeers each. Simply, it's very hard for anything to get across the table. All the RNG 14 rockets just blow jacks off the table and massacre infantry. Meanwhile, four big bags of hitpoints are milling around at the back or with toes in the zones, ready to sprint across the table and kill anything that comes within a foot of them. Or there's Sloan with the Hunters and Arcane Shielded Stormwall for zone-holding, and perma-kiting Legion gunlines.
So, how do we deal with something like that?
Right now, the only option I can see is a Kingmaker cloudwall (blocks the Rocketeer spam, has too many targets for Sloan, and the the caster will be under permanent Feign Death). It seems like the only way around the really hardcore gunlines is simply to say NO, and we don't have a feat to do that. Ashlynn and Fiona could, but in practice, the enemy can simply back out of her control range and keep shooting. Shae has a good counter with Phantasm, but that can only be on one thing at a time.
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Post by GijsB on Apr 8, 2017 5:49:26 GMT
How about a Bart Jack heavy list? Batten Down the hatches would make sure a lot of your jacks arrive.
Talon spam and Galleon list could work with him too, seeing that you have an armour 21 Talon wall advancing, followed by a Galleon, which could wreak havoc while the talons occupy key targets. Besides the armour, stall is nice to make enemy jacks less effective.
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Tucker
Junior Strategist
Posts: 103
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Post by Tucker on Apr 8, 2017 14:43:35 GMT
MacBain. Feat + Countermeasure on a unit of Kayazy (or whatever). Follow up with something that can put a lot of damage on the Winter Guard, which usually means Manglers and your own guns, to thin their numbers and reduce the incoming fire.
Caine3 with a Galleon might be able to do it depending on the situation as the sheer number of AOEs that he can put out will kill of the Winterguard right quick and he can shoot down Vlad's warjacks. I would be hesitant to put Caine3 into this match, though, unless I had some good terrain for him to hide behind.
This is scenario dependent but I had decent success this very same Vlad1 army with Ashlynn taking Gibbs and 2 units of Thorns. The scenario had objectives so my Fuel Cache pooped out smoke, Ashlynn added to it with Twister, and then Gorman plugged in the gaps before reforming out of LOS. The Thorns popped into the clouds, killed 10-12 Winterguard a turn, and then reformed out of LOS. Meanwhile Distraction shut down a unit or two per turn while Kayzay jammed and gave the Khadorans something to waste their shots on and my warjacks waited to counter the Khadorans'. Not a hard counter or anything, but definitely a playable match up if you can do anything to block LOS.
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Apr 9, 2017 18:01:23 GMT
put surefoot on 15 trenchers. cautious advance and lob grenades every turn. win every tiem
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Apr 10, 2017 13:51:30 GMT
Gorten + Solid ground + high def units. No blast damage, a feat that throws jacks off the zone or pulls them to you so you can tear them up, and a TON of WJ points.
Yes, there is more than one Rhulic caster.
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Post by Azuresun on Apr 10, 2017 23:09:17 GMT
Thanks for the advice. But one thing I should emphasise is the sheer power of numbers in that Vlad list. RNG 14, RAT 7/9 and 3d6+12 damage both with S&P for the Rocketeer units (and their rifle tax) and 12" threat on the jacks is nearly impossible to answer. I played it once with a Magnus2 jack list and once with Macbain troop spam, and nothing made it across the board. I assure you, anything that requires getting into melee is a non-starter and I'm not convinced we can skew ARM or DEF far enough to beat the numbers. Oh, and Vlad's in a Wind Wall with random sacrificial pawns standing by, so forget about assassination or shooting at 2-3 of his jacks. In particular, it's the range that's the killer. 20" threat on the rockets, plus they can almost always kite a half-inch outside of RTE range.
I'm not looking for a list just to beat Vlad1 so much as a general anti-gunline solution, that can also handle the "your infantry is free points" Cygnar match and perma-kiting Legion. But two negative play experiences have persuaded me that if I run into that specific list at a tournament and don't have the ability to say HELL NO to it, I'm going to have a miserable couple of hours. It seems that Kingmaker is as close as we can get, providing the Kodiaks don't steam away too many Trenchers too early?
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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 11, 2017 3:19:05 GMT
I keep forgetting; do direct hits from the rockets count as blast damage?
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Tucker
Junior Strategist
Posts: 103
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Post by Tucker on Apr 11, 2017 3:44:28 GMT
My favorite 'anti-gunline' army is MacBain with a Galleon, Kayazay, and whatever else suits your style. It's good against Cygnar and Legion, and pretty good against Khador (though Butcher3 can do a number on it). It's especially good against Haley2 gunlines as MacBain's control abilities are a great counter for hers and the Galleon destroys any Cygnar jack that gets in its way.
I imagine Damiano in Kingmaker with Trenchers would be a good counter for Vlad1 and most Cygnar but I don't own Trenchers so I don't have the play experience to say for sure.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Apr 11, 2017 13:21:09 GMT
I keep forgetting; do direct hits from the rockets count as blast damage? Not unless they specifically say that the initial hit is blast damage; most do not but a few AoE's do have that addendum (if I'm remembering correctly).
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devonv
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 4
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Post by devonv on Apr 13, 2017 15:40:37 GMT
I keep forgetting; do direct hits from the rockets count as blast damage? Not unless they specifically say that the initial hit is blast damage; most do not but a few AoE's do have that addendum (if I'm remembering correctly). That's only attacks that override the damage roll with "models hit suffer..." and then explicitly refer to a blast damage roll. Otherwise direct hits are never blast damage, so Vlad can murder anything he wants even under Solid Ground.
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Post by ComboSmiteNick on Apr 16, 2017 5:27:44 GMT
put surefoot on 15 trenchers. cautious advance and lob grenades every turn. win every tiem I might have misunderstood what you meant here but you cannot Cautious Advance and throw Smoke Bombs in the same turn. Cautious Advance only allows normal ranged attacks. To OP: Damiano Kingmaker is probably the best solution to this. Surefooted Trenchers out front are a pain to deal with. They Cautious advance up the board every turn so they are immune to blast and DEF19 under Surefoot means they are hard to remove and no-KD means you get more chances to Tough. Behind them are 2 or more units of Steelhead Halberdier with Sergeant Nick in the middle giving most (or all) of them Wall of steel. At ARM15 the direct hit dude is dead but the POW6 blast needs 10's to kill the rest of them so the math is your favour. Following behind this is a bunch of heavies that outthreat the crap out of Khador Heavies with Road to War and can actually kill Khador Heavies with Damianos feat.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 16, 2017 6:57:57 GMT
Following behind this is a bunch of heavies that outthreat the crap out of Khador Heavies with Road to War Are you accounting for Vlad 1's feat in that?
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Post by ComboSmiteNick on Apr 16, 2017 16:34:23 GMT
Following behind this is a bunch of heavies that outthreat the crap out of Khador Heavies with Road to War Are you accounting for Vlad 1's feat in that? I wasn't. That's an issue. Feated AND Boundless Charged Khador jacks will get you but Damiano still outhreats feated Khador heavies without BC. Vlad1: SPD4 +4(feat) +3 charge + 1"melee = 12" threat (or 14" with BC) Damiano: SPD5 +3(RtW) +3 charge + 2" melee = 13" threat I feel like this is going to come down to positioning because the threat ranges are so close and Vlad really doesn't want to spend all that focus. If anything I'd give Damiano the edge because RtW is a non-linear threat and Vlad's is 100% linear. Remember if Vlad loads up a heavy and needs to cast BC for it to get there he can't cast S&P.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 16, 2017 18:52:10 GMT
I wasn't. That's an issue. Feated AND Boundless Charged Khador jacks will get you but Damiano still outhreats feated Khador heavies without BC. Vlad1: SPD4 +4(feat) +3 charge + 1"melee = 12" threat (or 14" with BC) Damiano: SPD5 +3(RtW) +3 charge + 2" melee = 13" threat I feel like this is going to come down to positioning because the threat ranges are so close and Vlad really doesn't want to spend all that focus. If anything I'd give Damiano the edge because RtW is a non-linear threat and Vlad's is 100% linear. Remember if Vlad loads up a heavy and needs to cast BC for it to get there he can't cast S&P. Cool, thanks for mathing it out. FYI I've heard people talk about bringing Spriggans (who have 2" Reach) with Vlad and all the rockets to deal with Stealth armies (since they have flares). I dunno if that's something that people actually do, what with Spriggans are so expensive compared to Juggernauts and Marauders now.
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Tucker
Junior Strategist
Posts: 103
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Post by Tucker on Apr 16, 2017 21:13:26 GMT
An important thing to remember about the Vlad1 army is that it is horribly vulnerable to incoming fire. Vlad1 can't protect the army at all and the Winter Guard are so densely packed that you can remove handfuls of them with every AOE you lob in their direction. If you have any way of protecting your models on the advance you should try to get up on attrition as quickly as possible.
Trenchers would be good for this with their rifle grenades. I have had success using Thorn Gun Mages to scoot up into forest, shoot out, then scoot back out of LOS with Gibbs' help. Skarath can be very useful if you can give him some concealment to Prowl in. A Galleon has obvious applications, both at killing Winter Guard and reeling in warjacks, but I would be careful before using it as it is such a huge target. Maybe take it with Bart and add a mechanic or two to the army to keep it in fighting trim.
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