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Post by Charistoph on Apr 5, 2018 16:00:52 GMT
Right, it's not like people can't take the gun bunnies because there aren't any Rhulic Jack Marshals out there. Oh, wait. While I don't personally disagree with you on your points, I think its important to point out that gun bunnies on Thor lose powerful attack as no focus and stuff like Empower is friendly faction, so while you can take them, they are much less valuable marshaled. Most Jacks are less valuable when marshaled. He was talking about just how stupid powerful one Jack was without any consideration to any other factor. And Thor isn't the only Rhulic Jack Marshal, just the most common and effective one.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Apr 5, 2018 16:01:53 GMT
I can't see it being any of the Rhulic ones for all the reasons people above have said. I also kinda doubt it would be Ashlynn, because getting Ashlynn0 and Ashlynn2 around the same time would be...odd. Shae or Bart would be a cool nod during the pirate CID. Fiona would have to be radically changed IMO to make sense as one.
All in all, I'm thinking it's probably Magnus or MACBAIN!!!, if not one of the pirates, and I'd rather see more MACBAIN!!!.
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Fang
Junior Strategist
Posts: 117
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Post by Fang on Apr 5, 2018 16:40:58 GMT
While I don't personally disagree with you on your points, I think its important to point out that gun bunnies on Thor lose powerful attack as no focus and stuff like Empower is friendly faction, so while you can take them, they are much less valuable marshaled. Most Jacks are less valuable when marshaled. He was talking about just how stupid powerful one Jack was without any consideration to any other factor. And Thor isn't the only Rhulic Jack Marshal, just the most common and effective one. In mk3 land, Thor is the only rhulic marshal at time of writing. Highshields don't have it anymore if they are what you were referring to. If all things being compared lose something as a baseline for an action (in this case marshaling), then for comparison reasons it is no longer relevant. Anything they lose that other don't lose remains relevant. Your argument is all jacks lose something when marshaling (these things are now moot when comparing betweens marshaled things) but I said bunnies lose something on top of that indirectly, namely powerful attack. Ergo, bunnies lose more than baseline and dismissing that extra loss as you do is illogical, But all this is missing the actual point of the issue, gunbunnies are amazing because they are super efficient with powerful attack. They do not drain their caster's resources, as long as they get power up. A journeyman caster grants power up, a jack marshal does not. So when you say no one takes them with marshals, therefore you believe no one will take them with a journeyman, you are completely misunderstanding how the bunnies work. They are amazing because of the powerful attack rule, not in spite of it. Furthermore, there is no limit on the amount of jacks a battle group controller such as a journeyman warcaster can take, whereas marshals can only have 1 jack. So even if we ignore the whole powerful attack thing, you still would only be able to take only one currently, and a rhulic journeyman would change that to unlimited, making it possible to spam them which wasn't possible before. Furthermore, if you take the solo just to take fully operational gunbunnies, the more bunnies you take the more spread out the initial buy in price of the solo is. The possibility to spam and their efficiency is what people are worried about, and while I personally don't know enough about other factions to say if any of them would go out and buy all the bunnies, it is not a worry you can brush away with the argument that currently they can take a single gutted version version of the jack with a 4 point solo buy in and they don't. With all of this said, I don't think its actually going to be a big deal, especially if Dwarf0 has 3 focus. With such a small control range, it limits the amount of bunnies you can fit that still benefit from power up. But I definitely could be wrong.
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Post by fallenexile on Apr 5, 2018 16:58:14 GMT
"Dwarf0" with 3 focus actually doesn't sound so terrible so long as he gets a decent 2 cost and a good upkeep.
Lady D'Elyse(Ashlynn0) would be cool, though. Focus 4, Distraction, Quicken, and a damage spell. Tone down her (admittedly already mediocre) combat ability and make her a bit more support like. Maybe the ability to take CG jacks? And voila!
I'm honestly disappointed that MacKay is the Warcaster riding a Railess and Locke is Partisan:CoG. I feel that Ashlynn2(3?) would've been a great choice to give mercs their first Siege Engine caster and would've made a great Partisan: CG.
Speaking of: A Dwarf2(3?) on a Siege Crawler or Magnus3 on some new engine would be awesome. (Pirate2 on a ship would just be too close to Skarre3)
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Apr 5, 2018 17:49:24 GMT
While I don't personally disagree with you on your points, I think its important to point out that gun bunnies on Thor lose powerful attack as no focus and stuff like Empower is friendly faction, so while you can take them, they are much less valuable marshaled. Most Jacks are less valuable when marshaled. He was talking about just how stupid powerful one Jack was without any consideration to any other factor. And Thor isn't the only Rhulic Jack Marshal, just the most common and effective one. Yes, they lose Powerful Attack, but Thor can tune them up which, functionally, is the same as Powerful Attack.
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Fang
Junior Strategist
Posts: 117
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Post by Fang on Apr 5, 2018 18:05:06 GMT
Most Jacks are less valuable when marshaled. He was talking about just how stupid powerful one Jack was without any consideration to any other factor. And Thor isn't the only Rhulic Jack Marshal, just the most common and effective one. Yes, they lose Powerful Attack, but Thor can tune them up which, functionally, is the same as Powerful Attack. Well it gives a similar bonus to gunbunnies (but not blasters!), but Thor has to be base to base to use and he has to use his action for it and he can only support one jack so its still weaker than the gunbunny just getting the bonus if they start in control range, and it doesn't scale at all (whereas you can in theory take multiple bunnies with PA and it scales as they all get it). The marshal strike true might make it worth it, but the take aim leaves Thor b2b with the bunny... It also opens up the whole can of worms of opportunity costs (you could take a a gunbunny and replace PA with tune up, but what could you be doing with that tune up (different jack) or the point package instead (10 points to get a single PA shot with either +2 to hit or +2 to damage). A Dwarf0 could take two bunnies+, and as long as its cheaper than 8 points it'll cost less extra investment per bunny than the Thor package. I dunno if it adds up to the same to be honest, I'll leave that up to more experienced people to call.
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Apr 5, 2018 18:29:55 GMT
Yes, they lose Powerful Attack, but Thor can tune them up which, functionally, is the same as Powerful Attack. Well it gives a similar bonus to gunbunnies (but not blasters!), but Thor has to be base to base to use and he has to use his action for it and he can only support one jack so its still weaker than the gunbunny just getting the bonus if they start in control range, and it doesn't scale at all (whereas you can in theory take multiple bunnies with PA and it scales as they all get it). The marshal strike true might make it worth it, but the take aim leaves Thor b2b with the bunny... It also opens up the whole can of worms of opportunity costs (you could take a a gunbunny and replace PA with tune up, but what could you be doing with that tune up (different jack) or the point package instead (10 points to get a single PA shot with either +2 to hit or +2 to damage). A Dwarf0 could take two bunnies+, and as long as its cheaper than 8 points it'll cost less extra investment per bunny than the Thor package. I dunno if it adds up to the same to be honest, I'll leave that up to more experienced people to call. Why not blasters? Tune-Up says next basic attack. Is a spray not a basic attack?
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Apr 5, 2018 18:37:20 GMT
u want gorten0 with rock wall and a couple of bunnies running around in every list
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Fang
Junior Strategist
Posts: 117
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Post by Fang on Apr 5, 2018 18:41:52 GMT
Well it gives a similar bonus to gunbunnies (but not blasters!), but Thor has to be base to base to use and he has to use his action for it and he can only support one jack so its still weaker than the gunbunny just getting the bonus if they start in control range, and it doesn't scale at all (whereas you can in theory take multiple bunnies with PA and it scales as they all get it). The marshal strike true might make it worth it, but the take aim leaves Thor b2b with the bunny... It also opens up the whole can of worms of opportunity costs (you could take a a gunbunny and replace PA with tune up, but what could you be doing with that tune up (different jack) or the point package instead (10 points to get a single PA shot with either +2 to hit or +2 to damage). A Dwarf0 could take two bunnies+, and as long as its cheaper than 8 points it'll cost less extra investment per bunny than the Thor package. I dunno if it adds up to the same to be honest, I'll leave that up to more experienced people to call. Why not blasters? Tune-Up says next basic attack. Is a spray not a basic attack? Sorry you are correct I think, I don't know where that idea came from but it was stuck in my head
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Post by Charistoph on Apr 5, 2018 18:53:17 GMT
Most Jacks are less valuable when marshaled. He was talking about just how stupid powerful one Jack was without any consideration to any other factor. And Thor isn't the only Rhulic Jack Marshal, just the most common and effective one. In mk3 land, Thor is the only rhulic marshal at time of writing. Highshields don't have it anymore if they are what you were referring to. I did miss that. I don't run Rhulics (my collection is more focused on the old 4 Star concepts), so I hadn't noticed that change. Still, there is Thor, and CID may see the High Shields get their Marshalling abilities back. If all things being compared lose something as a baseline for an action (in this case marshaling), then for comparison reasons it is no longer relevant. Anything they lose that other don't lose remains relevant. Your argument is all jacks lose something when marshaling (these things are now moot when comparing betweens marshaled things) but I said bunnies lose something on top of that indirectly, namely powerful attack. Ergo, bunnies lose more than baseline and dismissing that extra loss as you do is illogical, I wasn't the one doing a dismissal. The person I responded to was indicating that Gun Bunnies were strong enough on their own without any other consideration. They didn't list any of the combinations you describe. With all of this said, I don't think its actually going to be a big deal, especially if Dwarf0 has 3 focus. With such a small control range, it limits the amount of bunnies you can fit that still benefit from power up. But I definitely could be wrong. I think it wouldn't be as big a problem with 4 Focus, either, so long as the points and spells are right.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Apr 5, 2018 18:54:16 GMT
u want gorten0 with rock wall and a couple of bunnies running around in every list Not sure if you are joking, but I'm not sure there are too many lists that don't get better with a couple bunnies and rock wall on a stick.
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Fang
Junior Strategist
Posts: 117
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Post by Fang on Apr 5, 2018 19:24:40 GMT
If all things being compared lose something as a baseline for an action (in this case marshaling), then for comparison reasons it is no longer relevant. Anything they lose that other don't lose remains relevant. Your argument is all jacks lose something when marshaling (these things are now moot when comparing betweens marshaled things) but I said bunnies lose something on top of that indirectly, namely powerful attack. Ergo, bunnies lose more than baseline and dismissing that extra loss as you do is illogical, I wasn't the one doing a dismissal. The person I responded to was indicating that Gun Bunnies were strong enough on their own without any other consideration. They didn't list any of the combinations you describe. Here is the start of this comment chain: I don't think a dwarf one is likely. With a dwarf journeyman (unless they made it somehow exclusive to mercs) other factions could start getting access to dwarf jacks, I'm thinking more the gun bunnies. Imagine if you will a cygnar list that now also has a small detachment of bunnies running around? I may be thinking over the top, but I seem to remember talking about a "dwarf journeyman" a while back and it was pretty obvious that part of the reason dwarf jacks were so good, was because only mercs could take them, and only if you brought a dwarf caster, and it was determined that it would be bad otherwise. Right, it's not like people can't take the gun bunnies because there aren't any Rhulic Jack Marshals out there. Oh, wait. He said "dwarf journeyman". That is a battle group controller. You dismissed his argument (not taking about dismissing models but someone's thoughts) by saying they already can take gunners with a jack marshal. I just wanted to point out that a jack marshal is not a battle group controller, and you can't simple wave the concerns away with an argument that suggests they are, it may warrant more discussion than a sarcastic one liner. My other combinations that I mentioned are not side situations, they are just the battle group controller rules and the jack marshal rules and how they affect bunnies, which was what the original comment (BGC) and your retort (JM) are in disagreement on from this angle. I find it quite specific, he was worried about gun bunnies with a rhulic battle group controller in other factions so it wasn't out of place. While he did make a single line making a generic 'rhulic too good' but even your snark was focused on bunnies in particular. In the end, we agree on the end conclusion but I admit that my conclusions aren't supported at all because I don't know much. The reason I even responded was because your original argument doesn't support the case, and I find it important that if we are eventually get to a conclusion on this matter it has good support if you get what I mean. Btw sorry if I'm being irritating, that's not my intention.
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Apr 5, 2018 21:10:41 GMT
u want gorten0 with rock wall and a couple of bunnies running around in every list Not sure if you are joking, but I'm not sure there are too many lists that don't get better with a couple bunnies and rock wall on a stick. i am always a very serious fellow
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Post by moarbarmu on Apr 5, 2018 21:18:56 GMT
Gorten0 would be great. A Rhulic journeyman caster is longpast due.
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Post by Charistoph on Apr 5, 2018 22:26:26 GMT
He said "dwarf journeyman". That is a battle group controller. You dismissed his argument (not taking about dismissing models but someone's thoughts) by saying they already can take gunners with a jack marshal. I just wanted to point out that a jack marshal is not a battle group controller, and you can't simple wave the concerns away with an argument that suggests they are, it may warrant more discussion than a sarcastic one liner. My other combinations that I mentioned are not side situations, they are just the battle group controller rules and the jack marshal rules and how they affect bunnies, which was what the original comment (BGC) and your retort (JM) are in disagreement on from this angle. But that's not what he said. Here's the pertinent part: The quoted section doesn't bring up the possibilities of dwarf jacks with focus, just dwarf jacks, period. He was worried that other factions would get access to dwarf jacks, and the point is that factions have always had access to dwarf jacks because of jack marshals. It was more prevalent before because of High Shields having jack marshals (both unit leader AND Officer), but that doesn't change the fact that they were and are available to any faction that can take Thor and used to be available to anyone who took High Shields. I find it quite specific, he was worried about gun bunnies with a rhulic battle group controller in other factions so it wasn't out of place. While he did make a single line making a generic 'rhulic too good' but even your snark was focused on bunnies in particular. You may have a point if he bothered to mention the power of Rhulic Jacks under Focus rather than under the auspices of Thor or even a High Shield, but he didn't. You are probably right in the supposition, but that doesn't change what he actually stated. I am not a mind reader, so I cannot go by what a person intended, only what they stated. In the end, we agree on the end conclusion but I admit that my conclusions aren't supported at all because I don't know much. The reason I even responded was because your original argument doesn't support the case, and I find it important that if we are eventually get to a conclusion on this matter it has good support if you get what I mean. Honestly, I don't really agree to their conclusion as much. None of the Dwarf Jacks have an extended control range, and no Rhulic journeyman is going to have more than 5 boxes of damage or 8" of Control, and he's going to be slow. Add in the fact that only Irregulars is going to want a plethora of gun bunnies running around due to how the bonuses work, and it really isn't as much a open/shut case as he is supposing.
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