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Post by swormdodger on Apr 6, 2017 15:30:27 GMT
So we have three different ranged squads. (Not counting stormfalls) My question is in the communities opinion when would you wish to use one squad over another. What sort of casters do each prefer. What situations does each squad excel. Overall, just looking for a discussion on our range options and the advantages and disadvantages.
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Post by Kallas on Apr 6, 2017 17:18:23 GMT
Houseguard Riflemen: Never bother with them at the moment. Invictors for a point more are better 98% of the time.
Invictors: If I want a reasonably tough line unit. They're flexible and can do what I need turn to turn. They work well as a second wave.
MHSF: Good for skirmishing (with Eiryss3) and can clear infantry pretty well, plus they threaten jacks fairly well.
Strike Force find their way into my lists the most and, while I like them, Invictors are somewhat difficult to fit into my lists (as I often run quite a lot of jacks or something like Destors in a similar role.)
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Tucker
Junior Strategist
Posts: 103
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Post by Tucker on Apr 6, 2017 17:59:29 GMT
I take Riflemen when I take Halberdiers so I have two units for the Thane to buff. Obviously they combine well with the halberdiers, clearing off the enemy's jamming units and letting the halberdiers attack deeper into the enemy lines. They can help build on an anti-stealth theme if you take Issyria, Discordia, etc.
Invictors are a nice general purpose unit that get good use out of most offensive and defensive buffs. They're especially nice at thickening the fire of a myrmidon-heavy shooting army, either blasting infantry to free up the myrmidons to shoot at hard targets or knocking at hard targets with a CRA.
I play with Strike Force a lot just because I like Mage Hunters. Two units is a lot of advance deploy and can often overwhelm the enemy by getting up the board early. If I take just one unit then it can't pressure the enemy all on its own so it usually hangs out on a flank as a harassment; Eiryss3 is great in this role. As they lack CRA and can have difficulty doing damage I usually don't take Strike Force unless I plan on dropping their army against Warmachine, or if the warcaster has a shooting buff of some sort.
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Post by Tom_Bombadil_ on Apr 6, 2017 20:28:31 GMT
I am going to throw out a word for my good friends the Nyss Hunters. They don't get a lot of love in faction compared to Strike Force but I really like them especially with Kealyssa. Blur and feat makes up for their lack of stealth and they are they fit into a more generalist playstyle still doing well into hordes. Plus I feel that E3 is almost a must with Strike Force and the Nyss allow you to take one of her other incarnations.
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dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on Apr 7, 2017 8:53:22 GMT
Houseguard Riflemen with Thane solve Stealth problems. I don't play into a lot of Stealth lists currently, so I'm leaning towards the other choices. Long RNG means the front row can often Aim, giving you RAT 9 on 2-man CRAs, and the mini-feat also makes them very accurate. I think they might have a place with Ossyan, or perhaps when people start playing more Infantry in SR2017.
Invictors offer good RAT and surprisingly high MAT for a ranged unit. It can surprise opponents who attempt to run to engage them. They have bad DEF but handle blasts well. They often compensate for their "victim stats" by putting out a lot of damage of their own.
Mage Hunter Strike Force offers Stealth (which can both be game-breaking and mostly irrelevant depending on the opposing list) and Pathfinder (which is a significant advantage with Mk3 using more terrain). They are good against most Warmachine armies because 'jack hunter means they do decent damage - even to ARM buffed Colossals. I would put two Units in a dedicated anti-Warmachine list if I wasn't so afraid of mass Electro Leaps...
I am still waiting for my fiancée to assemble our Nyss Hunters but I like them in principle. They are the only unit which ignores Cover/Concealment and they are decent in melee as well.
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Post by Demeritus on Apr 16, 2017 5:52:28 GMT
Houseguard Riflemen are our most specialized unit (with the thane) in that they hunt stealth, outside of that I feel they fall off pretty heavily versus the other ranged units. They are not bad by any stretch but I think in most situation our other (main) two bring more. If you are in a stealth heavy meta, bring them and thanes and laugh.
Dawnguard Invictors are probably our most all around range unit in that they can handle themselves in melee and at range pretty well and thanks to a higher base pow than Riflemen and CRA and with their UA they have Combined Arms to make sure that they can hit the targets you want them to hit and with their minifeat and assault they can deliver some pain from WAY far away.
MHSF are a nice skirmishing unit than can slot in a lot of ways depending on caster and what you want them to do. With stealth they can be harder to deal with and thanks to AD and pathfinder they are definitely our most manoeuverable ranged unit,and let's not forget that blessed gives them more options in their target choice along with jack hunter, and their UA choice determines more about how they will be used. If you take the commander, they have that one turn to shoot through things and snipe out support or go after casters (much harder to do than in mk2 but with someone like Issyria it's doable). With Eiryss they are much more of a skirmish unit with their ability to shoot and scoot giving them a lot more tactical flexibility as your opponent cannot determine where they will be or how they will be spaced after they attack.
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Post by ComboSmiteNick on Apr 16, 2017 6:08:29 GMT
Why aren't you counting Stormfalls? I play double SFA as a package more than the 3 units you are asking about combined.
Edit: Also. Nyss.
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Post by swormdodger on Apr 17, 2017 14:06:48 GMT
Why aren't you counting Stormfalls? I play double SFA as a package more than the 3 units you are asking about combined. Edit: Also. Nyss. Nyss I just wasn't really considering until June. And I am ignoring Stormfalls because, like electromancers, you really know what your taking them for. Reason I mentioned the three above is they're your basic 10 man ranged unit. I wanted to see if people had odd tricks, interactions, and uses for one over the others. Like if say one caster really sets a MHSF off and not the others.
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Post by praetorian on Apr 17, 2017 20:17:03 GMT
Ok, Elara really cranks up invictors to 11. Marked for Death solves stealth, scything touch can make them hit above their weight class, and her feat lets them walk out of combat, ignoring free strikes, or to assault with minifeat to 24" away.
Nyss I find to be amazing with Issyria. High def with hunter and pathfinder gives them a lot of utility with the list. I am also a huge fan of them as a mixed arms unit, which Issyria supports very well.
Riflemen are there when you need to remove stealth. The Command Attachment is no where near as necessary as the houseguard thane for the unit. I generally only run the unit with the solo and ignore the CA. They do an outstanding job of putting long range firepower downrange. The CA is really cool if you constantly run into the situations where you want to combine shots into melee, or if your opponent is really good at jamming your stuff and you kill a lot of stuff up close.
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Post by GreatBigTree on Apr 19, 2017 23:30:44 GMT
Riflemen, with Command Attachment, can combined fire into a close combat. So it's fairly easy to keep them "part of the game" while something else is fighting a close combat. Jam a single Sentinel into combat with Target Warjack A, have the rest slam into Target B. Solo Sentinel is going to get whacked... triggering vengeance. Shoot the Riflemen as combined fire [Probably a 3+ to hit, even in cc] Into Target A with a POW of up to 21 with the Officer's shot... and with a Thane you have a threat range of 18" to do that. You'll probably do a solid chunk of damage to even a heavy jack... more so if you can add damage with buff spells.
For example, Helynna could Hand of Destruction Target A, which would give you a great chance of hitting at 29 or 30 Damage.
I hope they work well that way, with Sentinels. Haven't had a chance to try it out yet.
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Post by dapperpessimist on Apr 20, 2017 16:40:12 GMT
Riflemen, with Command Attachment, can combined fire into a close combat. So it's fairly easy to keep them "part of the game" while something else is fighting a close combat. Jam a single Sentinel into combat with Target Warjack A, have the rest slam into Target B. Solo Sentinel is going to get whacked... triggering vengeance. Shoot the Riflemen as combined fire [Probably a 3+ to hit, even in cc] Into Target A with a POW of up to 21 with the Officer's shot... and with a Thane you have a threat range of 18" to do that. You'll probably do a solid chunk of damage to even a heavy jack... more so if you can add damage with buff spells.
For example, Helynna could Hand of Destruction Target A, which would give you a great chance of hitting at 29 or 30 Damage.
I hope they work well that way, with Sentinels. Haven't had a chance to try it out yet. Not sure how Hand of destruction would help rifle men, isn't it just battlegroup? Either way, cra into melee is great against things like casters or large blades models.
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Post by GreatBigTree on Apr 21, 2017 3:01:58 GMT
Whoops, my bad. Er... just imagine some similar power that would actually work in this situation. That will save me having to learn something by looking it up, and will serve the purpose of making me look more intelligent than I actually am.
Now just relax. This has all been a dream. GreatBigTree is not a complete buffoon... doodledy-doo, doodledy-doo, doodledy-doo. *waves fingers magically*
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Post by norka19 on Apr 21, 2017 11:11:59 GMT
Why aren't you counting Stormfalls? I play double SFA as a package more than the 3 units you are asking about combined. Edit: Also. Nyss. new to Ret so no trying to judge you or anything. But so you think you get enough use out of 8 bodies compared to the 10-12 you get for the same price of these units?
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dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on Apr 21, 2017 12:30:14 GMT
Why aren't you counting Stormfalls? I play double SFA as a package more than the 3 units you are asking about combined. Edit: Also. Nyss. new to Ret so no trying to judge you or anything. But so you think you get enough use out of 8 bodies compared to the 10-12 you get for the same price of these units? Absolutely true. Stormfalls make you much more susceptible to electro leaps or long-ranged enemy fire. On the other hand, they are also very versatile. An extra die of damage can make up for their lack of numbers. The AoE can help clear high-DEF low-ARM infantry (like Mage Hunters), and Snipe means they can often aim to help with their low RAT. In other words, they are a worthy addition (despite low body count) if you want a versatile unit.
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Post by ComboSmiteNick on Apr 21, 2017 12:32:13 GMT
Why aren't you counting Stormfalls? I play double SFA as a package more than the 3 units you are asking about combined. Edit: Also. Nyss. new to Ret so no trying to judge you or anything. But so you think you get enough use out of 8 bodies compared to the 10-12 you get for the same price of these units? In the right situations, Yes. Ret shooty infantry is pretty well distinguished right now. All the units seem to have a reasonable role. For ARM cracking nothing beats SFAs. RAT5 is their one weakness but there are lots of ways to get around that in Ret. Ossyan losing dead eye was a major blow for this unit though.
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