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Post by deathbymelancholy on Mar 27, 2018 13:08:55 GMT
So talking to one of our "locals" who is very well known for his Retribution, and he seems to be of the opinion that Ret is currently well suited for local and small tourney victories, but very ill suited for large Cons.
His theory is that if you know what you will face, Ret is very well balanced and can plan for it, but on the large scale tournaments where the breadth of field is to large, that is why they falter. We lack an ability to answer everything in two list pairs that is worse than most and don't ask questions that aren't incidentally answered as people plan for the field.
I'm not sure that I totally agree but, he is a much, let's say higher esteemed rather than better, player than me, so I do value the opinion at least. I'm of the opinion that Rahn at least is a unique caster that can bring some real questions. Whether people have incidental answers? *shrug*.
Just curious as to where everyone here might stand on the issue. I play Ret, Trolls, and one mercenary Irregulars list. With Trolls being so over represented at the moment I might lean on Ret more than I anticipated coming back to the game after hiatus.
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Post by hrimfaxi on Mar 28, 2018 13:12:08 GMT
Do you disagree that Retribution has specialist tools that answer meta questions while having a significant opportunity cost to playing them, or do you disagree that Retribution doesn't ask strong meta questions, or both?
This might be an issue of semantics. If your "local" is talking about hard questions he could be of the opinion that to qualify as a "hard question" it's one that depends on list build to beat, e.g. armor skew needing POWs to hit a certain number to be able to beat as opposed to a list that has a specific and hard to counter win condition. In that regard Rahn isn't a hard question since surviving Rahn is almost never a question of bringing pieces (although Midwinter, the Covenant, and Eilish certainly help) and more a question of superior positioning. Every list can be positioned well, therefor it can be played out of instead of teched out of with model choice and is therefor not a "hard question" list.
TL;DR You two could be talking at cross purposes and need to define terms.
Really TL;DR ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Mar 28, 2018 16:13:23 GMT
Not really. I get what he is saying, in a nutshell, REt can win locals and smalls, they are going to continue to struggle mightily in big events. I'm not 100% sure that I agree, but was curious as to how the rest of our community felt about that opinion.
Rambling explanation of conversation didn't set a clear question I guess.
As an aside; Really? That is too long to read? Doesn't seem egregious to me and I tried to break it up a bit.
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Post by hrimfaxi on Mar 28, 2018 23:22:39 GMT
Oh, my bad, I was trying to suggest my post was long and ranty, hence the TL;DR options, and the second one was literally just for comedic value.
More to your topic, I'd say Retribution could absolutely win large events right now if you had a great read on the tournament meta. Retribution models tend to be pretty flexible and have (on the whole) good to great statlines, but we pay for that in a lack of flat buffs (I'd kill for a +2 damage model/unit spell) for synergy and in a dearth of defensive options, e.g. staying power. This makes leveraging your force and target prioritization top priorities with no real room for error since we can't just recursion or tough our way out of a bad situation and we're pretty reliant on troops due to chassis and Theme Force restrictions. Retribution is very finesse oriented right now, which I would say is an improvement over the Will of the Nine Voices era but does make just solidly smashing a large scale tournament a bit more challenging but doable.
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Post by Dirhavel on Mar 29, 2018 6:52:19 GMT
It's certainly possible to win a big Con with Ret, Michael Ireland came close at Captaincon for exemple. That said, the game feels very wide open right now with vastly different skews, it's almost impossible to tech against everything (no matter which faction you play, Ret isn't alone in this) so I don't believe that should be the goal. You need a lot of luck to win any tournament anyway, whether it's a 16 man local steamroller or a 128 player Masters.
In Ret's case we are an "answer" faction at heart. Our jacks are designed to be expensive but versatile and most of our casters generally have a decent toolbox but nothing really over the top. The infantry is more specialized but they don't have a whole lot of support in faction, they are mostly designed to do one job and do it well by themselves. There aren't a whole lot of crazy combos available to us and everything in the faction feels very tame when compared to some of the other skews in the game. We can ask some questions of our own like Rahn or Elara2 Defenders, but they tend to be more binary (aka you have the answer or you don’t), whereas the strongest lists in the game right now ask questions on multiple levels, meaning they still have game even if you have part of the answer.
So all in all I would say that Retribution has the tools to compete at the top level and even win cons, but you have to carry your lists more than the lists carry you if that makes sense. In other words, this a a high skill cap faction that rewards high level play and adaptability on the battlefield.
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Post by onijet01 on Mar 30, 2018 2:36:51 GMT
I think list tooling and narrow skope in our theme forces are also a limmiting list building factor.
By my list pairings are Vyros 1 and Rahn 1 each within theme. And honestly ive never felt i did not have a list that couldnt answer any enemy question.
Though i will admit into being list locked with the wrong answer book.
An example of my answer books.
Vyros 1 (defenders of ios) answers
Dude-spam, High-armor, multi-box, stealth, and high-def questions
My original rhan1 (forges of war) list answers
Feild-control, assassination, and needing magical damage.
The new build answers
Feild-control, ranged assassination, magical-damage, huge-based models
I know i still have some questions i need to work answers in for but ive never felt back against the wall no options left vs any faction
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Munindk
Junior Strategist
Posts: 210 
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Post by Munindk on Apr 4, 2018 13:10:27 GMT
I think RET has the tools to deal with all the hard questions out there, but apart from Rahn I'm not sure we ask any unique questions though. I suppose it comes down to what you think is better: asking questions or asking them?
Our lack of a good generic theme might mean that we have issues answering more than one question with a given list, which becomes a bigger issue the bigger the meta is.
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bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
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Post by bluebeard on Apr 4, 2018 19:52:32 GMT
My answer has been a plan to run Rahn in Forges and Issyria in Shadows. Dark Guidance podcast episode 34 is a great listen for all us psycho pointy eared xenophobes.
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Post by necrovoker on Apr 4, 2018 20:27:48 GMT
My answer has been a plan to run Rahn in Forges and Issyria in Shadows. Dark Guidance podcast episode 34 is a great listen for all us psycho pointy eared xenophobes.
That cuts deep but I welcome the pain.
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bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
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Post by bluebeard on Apr 4, 2018 21:29:34 GMT
At first it seems like an episode that will be a complain-fest, but then very early on you realize the title was all sarcasm. Lol
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Post by onijet01 on Apr 5, 2018 6:55:50 GMT
What about defenders of Ios theme? I found it can handle qyite a few answers due to its speed and flexibility.
Could it ask any serious questions? Between houseguard halbadiers/rifflemen, and stormfalls it seems well built into lists that are armor walls.
I have had a degree of success vs northin and band of heros. As the halbadiers out threat most the armies, stormfalls can deliver extreme range support and fire (if needed) early on and rifflmen can do some good damage using cra into combat with war tempered.
Issyria can grant the list a massive 13 inches of movement charging between the thane and crusaders call.
I do use vyros but thats to allow my warjacks to crack armor better (i like going into beast bricks with the list)
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Apr 5, 2018 13:03:54 GMT
I really like Ryssovas in the DoI theme. They are the worst weaponmasters. But, when I can stick them behind some superfast Halbs, I really like the mid/late game presence. Having weaponmasters later, even the worst weaponmasters, is a nice spot to be when you can pull it off.
And to your point Onijet, I also keep looking at Stormfalls with interest. I've got a couple lists I've Squose them into, but I haven't played any of them yet.
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Post by onijet01 on Apr 5, 2018 23:37:44 GMT
I really like Ryssovas in the DoI theme. They are the worst weaponmasters. But, when I can stick them behind some superfast Halbs, I really like the mid/late game presence. Having weaponmasters later, even the worst weaponmasters, is a nice spot to be when you can pull it off. And to your point Onijet, I also keep looking at Stormfalls with interest. I've got a couple lists I've Squose them into, but I haven't played any of them yet. I use to run dual units but i wanted more accuracy so i now run a unit of stormfalls and a unit of rifflemen. |
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Munindk
Junior Strategist
Posts: 210
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Post by Munindk on Apr 6, 2018 6:44:45 GMT
I hadnt thought about the Ryssovas as a second line behind Halberdiers, but it makes sense.
They might be fun in a Thyron DoI list, Spellpiercer and Onslaught are decent buffs for them and Aelyth would make a interesting Storm Rager target.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Apr 6, 2018 13:47:39 GMT
Aelyth does seem like possibly the best SR target these days. Narn might edge him out depending on the target but Aelyth hits like a truck and appreciates the armor.
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