Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685 
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Post by Lanz on Mar 16, 2018 22:44:52 GMT
Gorten and Exulon may Feat push those Hellmouth Tentacles right out of the world!  Oh, and ranged Push effects can also RFP instantly, bypassing that Impervious Flesh entirely...Will current CMD 8 be enough with that change? Interesting, the addition or change of LoE Crit Fire attacks to Continuous Fire/Magical (Thag2) attacks as Immunities are being considered... (ps I should've bought that cheap Archangel ) Interestingly, thagrosh2 no longer has a fire elemental spray. Or ice elemental. It has fire on hit and crit stationary, but its damage type is just magical now. It's a magic dragonspray of always-best-case-scenario. As for the hellmouth, at least there's some play interaction there. If you know your opponent can trivially move them around, you just account for that with your placement, and weigh the benefits of haivng them further out and forcing your opponent to spend the resources to remove them, vs hanging them back a bit so they can't be easily removed. |
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Mar 16, 2018 23:07:15 GMT
That's an impressive leap of logic... Also, way to assert your opinion or the community's opinion is the only right one and any dissenting thought is "how you get dismessed". :thumbsup: So since everyone has to freak out over any comment ever make. I, not you or him or her or anyone else, would not recommend buying a model that has gone through 2 very distinct nerf passes. People were afraid of this from the start. Now, that is part ONE. I'm allowed to have more than one reason/opinion/experience and it seems I must always explain every thought I've ever typed out. The hellmouth is only allowed in one, community proclaimed, decent theme. (No one likes Ravens) I would not recommend anyone buy a model that is not going to be played, universally, IF they have other ideas in mind that would be more generalistic. Can you please jump OFF of my case now? Thank you I apologize, I was posting too aggressively. That's my bad. Clearly I went too far, and for that I am sorry. NOOOOOO!!!!! Keep fighting. The forums are like my soap operas. |
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Post by mcdermott on Mar 17, 2018 1:50:31 GMT
I mean, hellmouth is limited in themes precisely BECAUSE its so good. Not recommending people buy a really good model cause it doesn't work in lots of themes is equivalent of saying dont buy any models cause frankly they're all highly limited. You cant even work every beast/jack into every theme.
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Mar 17, 2018 1:56:33 GMT
seeing as how 1 of the main uses for the Hellmouth I've always had is blocking charge lanes out of control. I definitely would not buy or recommend the current hellmouth. Too bad i already have 2.... That's absurd. It's still an extremely strong piece, it's just no longer able to do something that isn't even critical to its core identity. It's an absolutely fine piece that is superb at contesting zones and forces your opponent to jump through hoops to avoid losing heavies for nothing. To say that because you can no longer run tentacles out of formation and therefore you would no longer recommend it is absolutely ridiculous. I get it, you are down on Legion. But come on man. This is the kind of hyperbolic complaining that gets you dismissed by others. 'no longer able to do something that isn't even critical to its core identity' is an interesting viewpoint (and subjective). I'd say the new rules have intrinsically marked/shifted the Hellmouth unit to unique within the game, creating a lesser abled model, at its core, in relation to ANY other unit. Are there any other models moving out of formation that are thusly removed from game? (Burrowers on un-burrowing perhaps). I will no doubt have to explain why I'm RFPing my own tentacle to an opponent with push trick(s) models... Down on changes to one unit is hardly down on Legion entire.  |
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Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 19, 2018 7:41:57 GMT
Does it even matter that much, from the opponent's point of view, if he can RFP the tentacle by moving it? They're ARM 15, even with Impervious Flesh most charges or halfway decent shooting can kill them. It's not like a heavy will suddenly decide to use a throw power attack or a slam instead of just whacking it. Also, because the direction is fixed in a way for power attacks, it would not be that easy to exploit. Nor does it add any more options to most infantry. If your opponent wants to invest valuable resources, like spells, to exploit a gimmick so he can remove your expendable model, isn't that a win for you?
Even if it is RFP'd, you still get a new one at the start of your turn.
Sure, you can't run it across the board so your medium based model with 2" melee can tie up shooting, be an arc node, or removing Dig In on a whole line of Trenchers anymore, but that was never really the intended use of it anyway. It is still a cheap, strong scenario model that takes a disproportionate amount of resources from your opponent to remove and can occasionally net you a free heavy.
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Post by macdaddy on Mar 19, 2018 13:54:30 GMT
I mean, hellmouth is limited in themes precisely BECAUSE its so good. Not recommending people buy a really good model cause it doesn't work in lots of themes is equivalent of saying dont buy any models cause frankly they're all highly limited. You cant even work every beast/jack into every theme. Sentry stones are only allowed in one theme and I recommend them all the time. Anyone that thinks the hellmouth is now bad because of lost some weird jank with the cmd range thing needs to sit back and Re-think thier approach to legion, |
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Post by cainuslupus on Apr 1, 2018 9:43:46 GMT
I mean, hellmouth is limited in themes precisely BECAUSE its so good. Not recommending people buy a really good model cause it doesn't work in lots of themes is equivalent of saying dont buy any models cause frankly they're all highly limited. You cant even work every beast/jack into every theme. Sentry stones are only allowed in one theme and I recommend them all the time. Anyone that thinks the hellmouth is now bad because of lost some weird jank with the cmd range thing needs to sit back and Re-think thier approach to legion, If you're not going to play PT (which is significant investment) and Ravens (which you probably won't) you will have no use for them. I own one, haven't played it since theme struck. I would be glad if non-Legion players had enough modesty to not make sweeping statements. Many models in Legion are not played only because our themes are crap or there are better alternatives. I'll be frank with you - since CiD I've found your coments about Legion disingenious. Hellmouth are fine in PT but lost many interactions that made them playable (jam and Vayl2 arc node). Right now they're only scenario piece (you need to be brain dead to get anything dragged with Hellmouth with premeasuring, but it's on you then). I think the change to the model to be OK, but I wouldn't say it's as good as non-Legion players believe (I bet most of which never played more than once against it, if that). It's not autoinclude. I believe you should sit back and rethink tone of your posts. |
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Post by macdaddy on Apr 1, 2018 17:52:06 GMT
cainuslupus look, I’m not going to say I’m a legion expert because I’m not. Each player approaches the game differently so different conclusions can happen. I do think the hellmouth is an excellent peice. PT is a great theme to invest in, just like Bones of orboros is a great theme to invest in. The hellmouth Offers you board control and can, if you get the opportunity, allow you to cheat trades with opposing heavies. A smart opponent will shut it down, but at what cost? Is your opponent giving up table space by avoiding its threat? Which is fairly far. Is it Controlling infantry and Jamming? Is It just stalking scenario? It’s a really strong peice and my point was not that it was OP or anything. I just think people complaining about it being bad all of a sudden because it lost a janky interaction are being over dramatic. Call me desengeneous but I try my best to back up statements with reasonable explanations or examples. From my interactions with the legion community so far, I get a lot...I mean a lot, of hostility and personal attacks just because I think differently. I’m not perfect, I come off as a dick sometimes too, and I apologize if I’ve offended you at some point, but I really don’t think my commentary is as bad as you seem to think it is.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Apr 1, 2018 19:06:25 GMT
Sentry stones are only allowed in one theme and I recommend them all the time. Anyone that thinks the hellmouth is now bad because of lost some weird jank with the cmd range thing needs to sit back and Re-think thier approach to legion, If you're not going to play PT (which is significant investment) and Ravens (which you probably won't) you will have no use for them. I own one, haven't played it since theme struck. Eh. I think it's safe bet that most players will play one of the two, honestly. I realized when I got craelix that I realistically could only play him into CoTD - which I had no plans of running, but it doesn't mean I won't. I would be genuinely surprised if players decided not to go into primal terrors due to investment costs. New players are basically buying a list - which would be the case regardless. Experienced players probably already have 2 hellmouths, a blightbringer, and some ogrun (most seem to have x2 warspears+UA). |
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Post by cainuslupus on Apr 2, 2018 9:40:49 GMT
If you're not going to play PT (which is significant investment) and Ravens (which you probably won't) you will have no use for them. I own one, haven't played it since theme struck. Eh. I think it's safe bet that most players will play one of the two, honestly. I realized when I got craelix that I realistically could only play him into CoTD - which I had no plans of running, but it doesn't mean I won't. I would be genuinely surprised if players decided not to go into primal terrors due to investment costs. New players are basically buying a list - which would be the case regardless. Experienced players probably already have 2 hellmouths, a blightbringer, and some ogrun (most seem to have x2 warspears+UA). I've seen (and participated in) enough new players threads to know it's often not the case. Budget is often important, especially for people starting with hands-me-downs. If you want to run beast heavy you'll get no use from Hellmouths. |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Apr 2, 2018 12:56:59 GMT
Eh. I think it's safe bet that most players will play one of the two, honestly. I realized when I got craelix that I realistically could only play him into CoTD - which I had no plans of running, but it doesn't mean I won't. I would be genuinely surprised if players decided not to go into primal terrors due to investment costs. New players are basically buying a list - which would be the case regardless. Experienced players probably already have 2 hellmouths, a blightbringer, and some ogrun (most seem to have x2 warspears+UA). I've seen (and participated in) enough new players threads to know it's often not the case. Budget is often important, especially for people starting with hands-me-downs. If you want to run beast heavy you'll get no use from Hellmouths. And honestly, even in a perfect world where I wasn't get-of-my-lawny bitter and you could play both in Oracles, you don't even really NEED them. Spamming that many Carny chassis isn't points effective, and the whole point of them is to help you cheat piece-trades. If you are cheating piece trades, you don't need to run lots of heavies. You're likely pulling at most 2 a turn, so 2 Carniveans would be all you need. They are actually much better suited to work with our slower models, which is why I think they are such a great fit for Primal Blightbringers (err, Terrors), because it actually lets your Gargantua participate in the game. Legion flying beasts don't need them at all because they can get the alpha on their own merits. Which confuses me because the Hellmouth is in Ravens, but it wasn't originally, and I think they just threw it in there because it wouldn't hurt anything balance-wise and for the longest time the Hellmouth wasn't legal in anything. |
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Post by chillychinaman on Apr 2, 2018 16:29:45 GMT
Just want to say, doesn't the Hellmouth in Ravens allow for an easier/safer alpha with the flying beasts? They barely hit hard enough stock so they probably need all the advantages they can get to initiate favorable piece trading.
At least that's how I see it.
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Post by cainuslupus on Apr 7, 2018 10:03:22 GMT
Just want to say, doesn't the Hellmouth in Ravens allow for an easier/safer alpha with the flying beasts? They barely hit hard enough stock so they probably need all the advantages they can get to initiate favorable piece trading. At least that's how I see it. Realistically - no. Defending against Hellmouth drag is simple enough for it to not matter. Hellmouth is scenario piece and in Ravens you take at least two units (usually much more). |
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Oh, and ranged Push effects can also RFP instantly, bypassing that Impervious Flesh entirely...Will current CMD 8 be enough with that change?
