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Post by custardboy on Mar 12, 2018 9:09:29 GMT
I've been looking at him occasionally as I kinda want a shooting counter that isn't just Aggravator. I'm perplexed by the 'anti-infantry' thing though. I've had no issues with Arkadius into infantry- Overtake, Feat and Raw Adrenaline ruined my last infantry-heavy opponent. He is actually my premier anti-infantry Pig caster. After almost two years of MK3, I've still never had an opponent silly enough to line up their infantry for a battle boar to killing spree through.
I've had a really hard time getting past the lack of damage, hit and miss style of his feat and Drang being nigh-useless... what matchups other than infantry do you think he sorts out?
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Post by Azahul on Mar 12, 2018 9:28:33 GMT
I've been looking at him occasionally as I kinda want a shooting counter that isn't just Aggravator. I'm perplexed by the 'anti-infantry' thing though. I've had no issues with Arkadius into infantry- Overtake, Feat and Raw Adrenaline ruined my last infantry-heavy opponent. He is actually my premier anti-infantry Pig caster. After almost two years of MK3, I've still never had an opponent silly enough to line up their infantry for a battle boar to killing spree through. Interesting. I've had the opposite experience. I rarely have opponents line up their infantry in a way that allows me to get ahead on attrition with Raw Adrenaline Gun Boar and Road Hog shots. I can handle a unit or two, but certainly not infantry spam. But then again, I do build Arkadius for taking out balanced lists and opposing heavies. Conversely, my opponents usually need to have much wider spacing to avoid berserk + overtake chains. It's honestly easier to chain through a deep formation than a line, for what it's worth, since if you can get far enough forwards you can bounce back and forth between the front two ranks. I've had a really hard time getting past the lack of damage, hit and miss style of his feat and Drang being nigh-useless... what matchups other than infantry do you think he sorts out? I'm looking forward to finding out, honestly Isn't "infantry" broad enough to make him worthwhile in a pairing? Certainly, my experience in the Rask game suggests that they may have a much deeper pool of favourable match-ups than I originally anticipated.
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Post by custardboy on Mar 12, 2018 23:00:49 GMT
I play Legion and Cryx too, I have had a few killing sprees with them. Oh, and Maximus But I've had this discussion more times than I can count that the battle boar just can't do it because of his low MAT and 0.5" melee. It is SO easy to prevent him. Anyway, infantry isn't what I need solved, it is guns. At the last event I went to I was torn apart by a Skorne gunline with a Carver monster mash list- I won because one of my opponent's later activations enlivened a war hog behind a wall who survived to overtake into Rasheth. Fortunately that was the only gunline I fought (actually I won that event and got the invite to the Au super series ). Maybe I should just have a bunch of games with him myself. I just mentally have a hard time not using half the abilities on a caster's card... I always try to squeeze out as much as I can...
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Post by Azahul on Mar 12, 2018 23:28:07 GMT
I play Legion and Cryx too, I have had a few killing sprees with them. Oh, and Maximus But I've had this discussion more times than I can count that the battle boar just can't do it because of his low MAT and 0.5" melee. It is SO easy to prevent him. I can remember being super skeptical of the Battle Boar's capacity to kill infantry for exactly the same reasons when Mark III dropped. I've been running four with Carver for a very long time now though, and I've rather come around on them. The low Mat is actually part of the reason I'm considering them with Sturm and Drang, because I actually kind of have a reason to go Drang now... Anyway, infantry isn't what I need solved, it is guns. At the last event I went to I was torn apart by a Skorne gunline with a Carver monster mash list- I won because one of my opponent's later activations enlivened a war hog behind a wall who survived to overtake into Rasheth. Fortunately that was the only gunline I fought (actually I won that event and got the invite to the Au super series ). Maybe I should just have a bunch of games with him myself. I just mentally have a hard time not using half the abilities on a caster's card... I always try to squeeze out as much as I can... Well, it's certainly early days yet. I'm yet to see how a Sturm and Drang/Arkadius pairing actually performs at a tournament and what gap it leaves uncovered. Guns I'm pretty blasé about though. Most of them are comfortable Arkadius drops for me. See you at the super series
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Post by Azahul on Mar 13, 2018 11:50:52 GMT
As an aside, got one last practice game in with the list (this time with Orin in place of the Bone Grinders), this time into Damiano Kingmakers to really test the infantry-killing abilities. Meant to take pictures, since I mean to go back to doing semi-regular battle reports this year. Forgot. The cliff notes: -Husks are certainly my favourite solo in the faction right now. Was able to jam them so far forward two turns in a row (one Husk each turn) that dealing with them prevented the Trencher Long Gunners from getting any real work done and not dealing with them would have left my opponent too clogged up to get the Long Gunners into anything anyway. Terrain and scenario (Spread the Net) helped a lot, as did getting the first turn, but thus far I've used them in three games and all three games they've been invaluable and had at least one moment where one of them utterly screwed my opponent's turn. I've no doubt my opponents will learn to deal with them, but they seem like a difficult prospect for many lists. -I wish people would stop rolling so well against my Meat Thresher. That's the second time in two games where it should have lived but a silly number of sixes saw it die. On the plus side, I guess it's nice that I can lose it and still feel on top. -I went for an assassination with Skarath and a Battle Boar, but I could have easily played attrition. I had the capacity to remove most of my opponent's 40-odd infantry that turn (I think I killed about 12 just opening up the assassination run, and with Skarath and that Battle Boar going harder on the infantry clearing plus all the tools I hadn't yet activated I could have gone a lot harder). Wouldn't have been able to deal with my opponent's two remaining Nomads, but I could have mitigated one's effectiveness with a TK and the other had been bogged down by a Husk and wouldn't have been able to get into the action that turn. -I USED DRANG! Being able to TK Skarath with the Soul Slave and still get +2 Mat and free charges for the Battle Boars was really nice. I'm... not sure it's realistically part of any game plan outside of the final turn, but it's at least worth consideration when you're facing that many infantry and have that many Battle Boars.
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Post by Gaston on Mar 13, 2018 12:09:27 GMT
Grats! I just put two Husks on order. You have 3 in your list, correct? Do you deploy 2 and ambush 1? AD all 3? Also....so you are saying that all Drang needed this whole time was Sturm? PS: Bro. Bro. Shrines can TK themselves too.
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Post by Azahul on Mar 13, 2018 12:17:43 GMT
Grats! I just put two Husks on order. You have 3 in your list, correct? Do you deploy 2 and ambush 1? AD all 3? Mwuahahahaha, it's like Bone Grinders all over again! But yes, I have three. I prefer to deploy all three, but this game was Spread the Net so I ambushed one to muck around with my opponent's flag. Also....so you are saying that all Drang needed this whole time was Sturm? We found the solution! Clearly, we need to get PP to merge all of Drang's abilities onto Sturm's card, then give us an entirely new spell list and ability set for Drang. ...honestly, my feeling on the pair after these games is that they don't need a redesign to be competitive, but I do sorely think Drang should get an overhaul purely to make him a compelling choice. Sturm's lucky that at this point he has four quality spells and can basically make do without Drang, but then you never utilise their coolest feature. PS: Bro. Bro. Shrines can TK themselves too. Wait, what?!
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Post by Gaston on Mar 13, 2018 12:39:36 GMT
Mwuahahahaha, it's like Bone Grinders all over again! But yes, I have three. I prefer to deploy all three, but this game was Spread the Net so I ambushed one to muck around with my opponent's flag. They were already on order, but I mean...I have no Grinder Regrets? I want to use the Husks with Helga WWFF as well. We found the solution! Clearly, we need to get PP to merge all of Drang's abilities onto Sturm's card, then give us an entirely new spell list and ability set for Drang. ...honestly, my feeling on the pair after these games is that they don't need a redesign to be competitive, but I do sorely think Drang should get an overhaul purely to make him a compelling choice. Sturm's lucky that at this point he has four quality spells and can basically make do without Drang, but then you never utilise their coolest feature. There is a reason that I say I play Sturm, not Sturm and Drang. They need some quality of life to be sure. And a touch better feat. Arc nodes can target themselves.
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Post by Azahul on Mar 13, 2018 12:56:34 GMT
They were already on order, but I mean...I have no Grinder Regrets? I want to use the Husks with Helga WWFF as well. Haha, I'm glad there were no regrets. I'd feel real guilty otherwise... Damn I loved that list. There is a reason that I say I play Sturm, not Sturm and Drang. They need some quality of life to be sure. And a touch better feat. Urgh. Yeah. The Feat. I hate how strong it feels into Hordes and how inconsequential into Warmachine. Prevent Power Up too, please, at the absolute minimum. Arc nodes can target themselves. Oh, I thought we were just being silly and cracking jokes about the thread title... Yeah, I knew that. Bone Shrines are awesome
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Post by ghoulio on Mar 13, 2018 13:44:04 GMT
There is a reason that I say I play Sturm, not Sturm and Drang. They need some quality of life to be sure. And a touch better feat. Urgh. Yeah. The Feat. I hate how strong it feels into Hordes and how inconsequential into Warmachine. Prevent Power Up too, please, at the absolute minimum. This 100%. I have never had it be a factor ever in WM. There are also so many solos these days with power up which completely negate the feat. My pairing for a long time now has been Sturm & Drang/Arkadius and I just love it. After playing Drang I really wish he had some sort of damage buff or something to make you want to play him. Maybe just give him Alpha Hunter and a cost 2-3 nuke to help activate it. In all the games I have played S&D I think I have used Drang twice total and one of those games it was already over and I was just playing clean up so it doesnt really count. Glad to hear the list is working so well for you and it looks like it might be time to pick up some Husks haha.
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Post by Azahul on Mar 14, 2018 0:30:18 GMT
This 100%. I have never had it be a factor ever in WM. There are also so many solos these days with power up which completely negate the feat. Don't talk to me about Ret... I guess it still shuts down Arc Nodes? My pairing for a long time now has been Sturm & Drang/Arkadius and I just love it. After playing Drang I really wish he had some sort of damage buff or something to make you want to play him. Maybe just give him Alpha Hunter and a cost 2-3 nuke to help activate it. In all the games I have played S&D I think I have used Drang twice total and one of those games it was already over and I was just playing clean up so it doesnt really count. Glad to hear the list is working so well for you and it looks like it might be time to pick up some Husks haha. Alpha Hunter isn't a damage buff, but it wouldn't be a bad start to reworking him. I... actually kind of like the idea of having to use Obliteration to proc it rather than giving Drang a weaker nuke, that'd be kind of entertaining as a comparison to Abby2. It's not a damage buff, but the Speed Buff would be invaluable and actually help feed into what I think the pair's supposed game plan is meant to be. I mean, on paper, it looks like Sturm is delivery and Drang is what you swap to when it's time to punch, but because Sturm can buff threat ranges Drang ends up in this position where you have to choose between being better at combat or actually making it into combat. I actually really like the conceptual difference between the pair too, where Sturm has the baller spell list and Drang has no spells of note but a ton of passive effects to make up for it. The problems primarily are that he's too slow to then use his 7 Fury for anything other than passing out Primal, which doesn't feel super dramatic, and that WWFF replicates one of his two passive effects. If they stripped Killing Ground out entirely and gave him Relentless Charge or Pathfinder as his Field Marshal, that would feel a lot better. Particularly since the free charge element would be replicated by the swap from Pack Hunter to Alpha Hunter. I don't know what to do about a damage buff. Abuse feels thematic but over the top, particularly since we have the Soul Slave to make it possible to cast it with Sturm in control or to couple it with TK when Drang is in charge. Tag Team could be fun, but would mean he'd probably need to lose the accuracy buff from his passive effects. I can't think of very many others that don't fall into the same problems. Getting bogged down in the details though, I suspect. Sturm is fine. Drang needs a rework. Feat is great into Hordes. Feat needs a rework into Warmachine. I guess they got the binary opposite part of the character design down pat?
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Post by jagius021 on Mar 14, 2018 1:03:42 GMT
Can you tk the thresher? I know you can't to a Garg, but what about battle engines?
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Post by Azahul on Mar 14, 2018 1:09:56 GMT
TKing the Meat Thresher is fine.
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Post by Azahul on Mar 14, 2018 1:11:04 GMT
One cute trick I have always enjoyed doing is sending it into a heavy and then TKing it back and Feating so that the opponent's attack efficiency gets even worse. Forces them to spend their 1 Fury/Focus for the turn standing back up.
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Post by custardboy on Mar 14, 2018 1:41:27 GMT
I really like Pack Hunters, it is simple and effective. However switching both abilities for Alpha Hunter and Relentless charge would be good, and it kind of a damage buff (free charges are a thing). He could possibly gain a damage buff spell too. Hahah- Last Stand? One cute trick I have always enjoyed doing is sending it into a heavy and then TKing it back and Feating so that the opponent's attack efficiency gets even worse. Forces them to spend their 1 Fury/Focus for the turn standing back up.The Thresher should have reposition anyway...
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