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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 19, 2018 8:42:19 GMT
The reason the Mangler makes a good marshalled Jack is because it can charge for free. With the Toro you will have to use it's Jack Marshall bonus to charge, which means is cannot Crush, and it offensive output drops through the floor as a result Exactly. Plus I believe it can still Thresher on a charge when marshaled, so you can have a MAT 8 Thresher if needed?
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Post by xc18 on Mar 19, 2018 10:13:35 GMT
Doesn't make it a bad marshalled jack. If your list already has access to iron aggression or hunter Mark, a flanked marshalled jack should have more damage output than the same jack with 3focus. + shield guard or pf, why not take a JM jack?
Anyway, the point was countercharge at mat6 or mat8. Flank makes a big difference : one will miss, the other will hit and wipe half the damage grid of the other jack.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 19, 2018 10:37:36 GMT
Doesn't make it a bad marshalled jack. If your list already has access to iron aggression or hunter Mark, a flanked marshalled jack should have more damage output than the same jack with 3focus. + shield guard or pf, why not take a JM jack? Anyway, the point was countercharge at mat6 or mat8. Flank makes a big difference : one will miss, the other will hit and wipe half the damage grid of the other jack. It may not be bad, but if you are forced to take Magnus 1 or sink 4 points into another solo then it is far from universally ideal
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Mar 19, 2018 13:51:48 GMT
Doesn't make it a bad marshalled jack. If your list already has access to iron aggression or hunter Mark, a flanked marshalled jack should have more damage output than the same jack with 3focus. + shield guard or pf, why not take a JM jack? Anyway, the point was countercharge at mat6 or mat8. Flank makes a big difference : one will miss, the other will hit and wipe half the damage grid of the other jack. So now we're playing Irregulars (or I suppose you can play Kingmaker with Magnus1 and Meg) with either a less useful caster, losing the 4th free solo possibility (with any Warcaster with less than 29 WJP) or choosing Lanyssa as our 4th and the Jack Marshall as our 3rd. This is sinking a lot more points into making this work than just biting the bullet and grabbing a Mangler. Also, anything I want to hit with a countercharge is probably a Warbeast or Warjack, which means a Mat6 is still likely to hit either way (some beasts become a problem, but most jacks are still well within "gimme" range). If it is a unit, there's no contest. Thresher is best. Lastly, damage output. With a free charge and crush and flank, you get 3 attacks at mat 8 (4d6+20, 3d6+20, 3d6+15) for a range of (24-44)(23-38)(18-33) and an average of (34)(30.5)(26.5). Compare to a fully loaded nomad and you get either 5 attacks at walk and move or 4 attacks at charge for (2d6+18 x4, 2d6+14) range (20-30x4,16-26) or (3d6+18,2d6+18x2,2d6+14) range (21-36,20-30,16-26). Averages (25x4 +21) and (29.5+25x2+21). Comparing to a fully loaded mangler and you get 5 attacks at charge for (3d6+18,2d6+18x3,2d6+16) range (21-36,20-30,16-26). Averages (29.5+25x3+23). Assuming ARM 20, the Marshalled Toro does 31 damage on average for 13+4+(4 or substandard warcaster choice) points of investment (assuming the solos instead of Magnus1 gives us just under 1.5 dmg/point) . The Nomad does 21 point of damage on average for 11 points of investment (just over 1.9 dmg/point). The mangler does 28 points on 15 points of investment (just under 1.9 dmg/point). At lower armor values, Mangler and Nomad begin to outpace Toro (due to number of attacks) but there is likely a rise in Def which would begin to bring accuracy into the equation (which Toro has a distinct advantage on). It it totally plausible that someone would want to play a Toro (for lots of reasons), but competitively I can't see a scenario in which it is beneficial unless you already wanted to play Rutger/Meg and either Magnus1 or Lanyssa.
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Post by xc18 on Mar 20, 2018 3:57:18 GMT
Yup, My point was IF you already have Lanyssa in the list, for whichever reason, which is not that uncommon. (you can do calculation of a full focus Nomad WITH lanyssa, it still does less damage than a marshalled Nomad also with lanyssa against high armor) Of course this is highly dependant on your list. Playing gorten in irregular, having an option for shield guard that couldn't care less to be disrupted, or a heavy with pf is competitive for me. And I always have Lanyssa with Gorten Anyway, my two cents are: it is worth looking at what options a Toro brings to a jack marshal, than just at what it does to a caster that already has access to manglers nomads, rovers,... (and yes I agree a mangler is better, and it reflects on its cost)
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Mar 20, 2018 19:04:49 GMT
Yup, My point was IF you already have Lanyssa in the list, for whichever reason, which is not that uncommon. (you can do calculation of a full focus Nomad WITH lanyssa, it still does less damage than a marshalled Nomad also with lanyssa against high armor) Of course this is highly dependant on your list. Playing gorten in irregular, having an option for shield guard that couldn't care less to be disrupted, or a heavy with pf is competitive for me. And I always have Lanyssa with Gorten Anyway, my two cents are: it is worth looking at what options a Toro brings to a jack marshal, than just at what it does to a caster that already has access to manglers nomads, rovers,... (and yes I agree a mangler is better, and it reflects on its cost) Totally get you. I just wanted to put it out in concrete terms. Like I said, I can't see it unless you meet that criteria. If you do, great! Seems valid. Unfortunately, that seems primarily like a corner case at the moment, but there certainly can be situations where it works.
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