Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 14, 2018 20:57:11 GMT
Not surprising. When you open up public playtest to anyone with enough manual dexterity to punch a keyboard with enough consistency to log on, you're gonna get some duds. A lot of CID is pretty decent. A lot of it, i cock my head the way my dog looks at me when I talk to her ; i really want to understand, and yet can't.
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Mar 14, 2018 21:02:05 GMT
also the off hand weapon on toro is only ps 13 on top of it all...
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Post by gobber on Mar 15, 2018 3:29:48 GMT
Agreed that the off hand pow seems weird. Did some scrounging and shields are pretty universally 1 less pow than fists (nomad 14 vs rover 13, driller16 vs avalancher15) so apparently they're being consistent; huh. Going off experience with countercharge elsewhere, it seems to be best when A) spammed and B) covered by a cloudwall. Three toros behind a llaelese trencher cloudwall with Ash's admonition around as well ought to be their best case scenario; hopefully I'll get a chance to play a couple games under that scenario to stress test it a bit but work on top of jury duty for a month is gonna be rough on the hobby time
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 15, 2018 3:57:49 GMT
I keep thinking that the +1 ARM counts for more if you have an ARM buff. Like, ARM 21 is a problem, ARM 22 is a BIG problem.
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Mar 15, 2018 15:46:31 GMT
I keep thinking that the +1 ARM counts for more if you have an ARM buff. Like, ARM 21 is a problem, ARM 22 is a BIG problem. Well, we have Fail Safe, Batten Down the Hatches and a couple Feats. So it is a thing that we could try to exploit. I've seen people drop a Rover Spam with Bart so I could see that with Toros, possibly done more effectively with Countercharge as an option instead of Shield Guard.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Mar 15, 2018 16:22:10 GMT
I keep thinking that the +1 ARM counts for more if you have an ARM buff. Like, ARM 21 is a problem, ARM 22 is a BIG problem. Well, we have Fail Safe, Batten Down the Hatches and a couple Feats. So it is a thing that we could try to exploit. I've seen people drop a Rover Spam with Bart so I could see that with Toros, possibly done more effectively with Countercharge as an option instead of Shield Guard. All the sudden though, that Bart list goes from being really good into a gunline into really bad. Not saying its a definitive blow against it, but its a very different type of list. Interesting concept though, and possible enough points in it to run a couple extra lights.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 15, 2018 16:25:39 GMT
Well, we have Fail Safe, Batten Down the Hatches and a couple Feats. So it is a thing that we could try to exploit. I've seen people drop a Rover Spam with Bart so I could see that with Toros, possibly done more effectively with Countercharge as an option instead of Shield Guard. All the sudden though, that Bart list goes from being really good into a gunline into really bad. Not saying its a definitive blow against it, but its a very different type of list. Interesting concept though, and possible enough points in it to run a couple extra lights. Maybe mix and match the Rovers and Toros, having every single jack with Shield Guard might be a bit excessive, can maybe squeeze in an extra small unit to get advance move on another jack
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Post by moarbarmu on Mar 16, 2018 4:09:35 GMT
The Toro needs an improvement in Mercenaries and in Crucible Guard. 13 points is very expensive for a basic melee warjack with no competition in Crucible Guard. We all know that it needs an improvement or two in our faction. We finally get a new heavy warjack and they want to give it to us as afterthought that is not competitive. We need to demand a better Toro. Tried and true is all we need, though 12 points and Tried and True would look much better.
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Post by gobber on Mar 16, 2018 4:15:08 GMT
The Toro needs an improvement in Mercenaries and in Crucible Guard. 13 points is very expensive for a basic melee warjack with no competition in Crucible Guard. We all know that it needs an improvement or two in our faction. We finally get a new heavy warjack and they want to give it to us as afterthought that is not competitive. We need to demand a better Toro. Tried and true is all we need, though 12 points and Tried and True would look much better. I really don't think the toro can get cheaper without crushing the nomad's toes. It really needs to justify the 13pt cost instead.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Mar 16, 2018 13:08:57 GMT
The Toro needs an improvement in Mercenaries and in Crucible Guard. 13 points is very expensive for a basic melee warjack with no competition in Crucible Guard. We all know that it needs an improvement or two in our faction. We finally get a new heavy warjack and they want to give it to us as afterthought that is not competitive. We need to demand a better Toro. Tried and true is all we need, though 12 points and Tried and True would look much better. I really don't think the toro can get cheaper without crushing the nomad's toes. It really needs to justify the 13pt cost instead. I totally agree, and I don't think it's close at the moment. We don't have enough tools to abuse spamming countercharge, so that coupled with the comparable stat spread, lack of free hand, and no tried and true (which frankly is a 0 point ability in my mind), means that I would essentially never take this. One more initial (horns maybe?), pathfinder, powerful/brutal charge, relentless charge, or bloodthirst are all thematically accurate and would give a benefit that would justify 2 (or 3 in some cases) points more than the nomad.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 18, 2018 21:19:01 GMT
I want the Toro to be good in mercs and CG. I currently only play mercs, and i plan to play CG.
However, realistically speaking, I think PP will let a Toro fly that is good to great in CG, and meh in Mercs. I do not think they are going to go to extreme lengths to make sure it has a solid, unreplicated place in both factions. They certainly are not going to do something to the Toro that will make it high quality in Mercs, but cause disruption within CID (by that meaning, whatever change they make causes ripple effects that they have to change or balance in CG - Aggressive on top of Counter Charge is an example of this. I don't think you want Free charging / running Toro's in a lock list that has free upkeeps, or a Lukas list in week 2.5 incarnation that on top of free charges and power up can cycle itself up to huge focus payloads, or make MacKay's battlegroup efficiency even better, etc etc etc).
I think that's the honest reality of the scenario, and all this comparison to the Nomad as "see, its so much better!", i think if this keeps up they are going to take a hard look at the Nomad's cost when Mercs get their CID. If people continue to sound the bell of "TOro at 13 is fine in CG, but Toro in Mercs suck, cuz 11 point Nomad", the logical conclusion they are going to draw is that there may not be a problem with the Toro, but maybe the Nomad needs to come up to 12 points.
Not sure any of us want this, but right now, "The toro stinks in mercs cuz 11 point Nomad" isn't leaving a lot of room for other conclusions.
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Post by gobber on Mar 18, 2018 21:25:42 GMT
I still think zeroing in on the loss of the open fist vs the nomad is the best way to go; grand slam or followup wouldn't do much for its overall offensive profile but encouraging a fluffy secondary attack mode would be neat
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Post by Soul Samurai on Mar 19, 2018 4:13:26 GMT
i think if this keeps up they are going to take a hard look at the Nomad's cost when Mercs get their CID. If people continue to sound the bell of "TOro at 13 is fine in CG, but Toro in Mercs suck, cuz 11 point Nomad", the logical conclusion they are going to draw is that there may not be a problem with the Toro, but maybe the Nomad needs to come up to 12 points. Not sure any of us want this, but right now, "The toro stinks in mercs cuz 11 point Nomad" isn't leaving a lot of room for other conclusions. That's pretty much what just happened in Khador; no-one ever took the more expensive jacks because you just paid so much more than a Juggernaut or Marauder for so little benefit (and were probably quite vocal in explaining why). Guess what happened next...
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Post by xc18 on Mar 19, 2018 5:13:32 GMT
The Toro seems quite suitable as a marshalled jack. Yes Mangler is better but too expensive and quite risky to be handled by a solo. Shield guard with rutger or pf/repo with Meg are perfect for the Toro. And the flank bonus - even during counter charge- compensate its Mat6.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 19, 2018 8:29:05 GMT
The Toro seems quite suitable as a marshalled jack. Yes Mangler is better but too expensive and quite risky to be handled by a solo. Shield guard with rutger or pf/repo with Meg are perfect for the Toro. And the flank bonus - even during counter charge- compensate its Mat6. The reason the Mangler makes a good marshalled Jack is because it can charge for free. With the Toro you will have to use it's Jack Marshall bonus to charge, which means is cannot Crush, and it offensive output drops through the floor as a result
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