bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Mar 14, 2018 8:24:23 GMT
Sure the Cipher is good. But I don't think it becomes "just dumb" as you said earlier. Redline is only an upkeep spell that I'd rather have on the Prime Axiom. But maybe a list without the Collosus is better? 2 P+S 18 arms definately makes a difference in this case. The feat: I don't know. I think most warcasters can live with 1 turn not casting any spells.. I'm not impressed by the feat anymore. Yes upkeep removal in Convergence is valuable (since Lucant's almost does'nt count), but as a feat it's fairly unimpressive to me. Let's say your opponent do cast a bunch of spells - what are Locke gonna cast? Not Jackhammer, since they have'nt engaged you yet. Some Bombshells left and right? Ok, go ahead
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Hjard
Junior Strategist
Posts: 123
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Post by Hjard on Mar 14, 2018 9:01:06 GMT
Don't underestimate the worth of more chances for cycling buffs. Imagine you already successfully cycled Redline on your turn. A Heavy went in, wrecked something close to you, Locke activated, gave Redline to another Heavy, that one wrecked something far away. Redline is now lying on a heavy that is likely to die, because it's close to the front, which prevents you from using it two times in the next turn. But now she can simply use her feat to put Redline back on the first heavy, who will probably survive. Allowing you to repeat the whole process for another turn.
Same goes for Sentry. Your enemy engaged the bot with sentry to prevent the shot? Up goes the spell on another one.
And then there are still Bombshells and Jackhammer / simply getting more focus to camp (goodbye spell assassinations, something CoC is way weaker to than shooting)
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Mar 14, 2018 17:11:18 GMT
All fair points I will admit, and actually doable with the current feat, since it only takes a couple of spells from your opponent to pull off, albeit it sounds like everything lines up perfectly. But is that feat level stuff? Sure it helps out a lot (in your example), in terms of threat range and focus efficiency that people normally are not expecting from Convergence.
Do you have a list in mind with the example you have? 6 Ciphers/Heavies and some support?
Convergence Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Destruction Initiative
(Locke 1) Aurum Lucanum Athanor Locke [+29] - Cipher [16] - Cipher [16] - Conservator [12] - Conservator [12] - Corollary [6] - Diffuser [6] - Inverter [15] - Inverter [15] Algorithmic Dispersion Optifex [2] Attunement Servitors [0] Elimination Servitors [0] Elimination Servitors [0] Elimination Servitors [0] Optifex Directive [4]
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Hjard
Junior Strategist
Posts: 123
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Post by Hjard on Mar 15, 2018 6:50:58 GMT
Haven't build a complete list yet as I don't really see a need for it until the CID is done. Currently I don't even think that there are that many lists to build with her. You have two choices: Include the Axiom or not. Everything else in the list will always be a mix of Ciphers, Conservators and Inverters + the usual support of Corollary, Diffuser, Mechanics and an ADO (the later is absolutely mandatory in her list). Why not the other jacks? Assimilator - Okay but doesn't really profit from anything she does. Yes it would bring a method to shoot stealth models / stuff behind clouds. But other CoC casters deal with that better Modulator - If you need a cheap jack, take a Conservator Monitor - The usual problem. Sounds interesting because he has a good gun for sentry. Then you remember it's RAT 5 Galvanizer - Theoretically good with Redline. But you can also put Redline on a heavy who will do more than twice the damage and be more resilient. Dies to fast without any protection (you don't want to sacrifice shield guards for Galvanizers) Mitigator - Why? RNG 7 on the gun makes this guy completely worthless for any kind of offence and he's to expensive to use defensively (aka shooting a clump of infantry that killed a heavy)
Your's looks decent for her current incarnation. Everything in the list profits greatly from almost everything Locke does.
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Mar 15, 2018 17:34:10 GMT
I agree with your assessment. Especially that there aren't many lists for her, if any at all. But I think that is more Destruction Initiative's fault or the mediocre jacks as you describe.
I find it hard to make a list with the Prime Axiom that won't lose fast on scenario or attrition. Axiom and 3 heavies is just not enough. She does'nt provide the army with more output or survivability, "just" slightly more damage and threat range.
You want to play TEP and/or melee jacks? Go with Axis or Lucant You want to play with Axiom(s) and/or ranged jacks? Go with Iron Mother or Orion
If Orion hadn't just been released I think I would value the upkeep removal a bit more. Spellpiercer solves a lot of the same problems.
A defensive buff spell would really suit her. Defenders Ward, Iron Flesh, whatever. Or is that too much allround good stuff then? Some were concerned that Vital Magic is too good, but is it really relevant during your opponents turn? Their game plan is the same whether or not you have the current spells in play, since they do nothing during their turn. A defensive buff would on the other hand.
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Hjard
Junior Strategist
Posts: 123
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Post by Hjard on Mar 16, 2018 6:56:30 GMT
I agree with your assessment. Especially that there aren't many lists for her, if any at all. But I think that is more Destruction Initiative's fault or the mediocre jacks as you describe. More the faction than the theme. There are not that many Jacks overall (doesn't help that 2/6 heavies are objectively worse than one or all of the others) Again: Better not compare her to any of those 4. Compare her to Syntherion. She does a lot of similar things, but with a heavier focus on melee than his truly combined arms style. It's basically: Take her if you want Syntherion, but don't own the Axiom. Yes Vital Magic is really important. Ever played Syntherion into someone who can remove upkeeps? It's terrible, even if those upkeeps do nothing to hinder your opponent in their play. Removing them hinders your turn. It's already annoying that he now needs two turns to set up all spells, which becomes only worse if your enemy starts stripping the spells. Locke would have the same problem, especially given how hard she will need to rely on cycling Redline. While none of her spells directly influences the enemy, striping Redline from a Vector is the same as giving whatever is opposite that Vector +2 ARM.
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Post by Korianneder on Mar 16, 2018 14:01:48 GMT
She's going to play jack heavy lists in a way that's different from Lucant/Axis/Syntherion. She gives us a play style that noone else in the faction gives us and that's getting the first attack with our jacks. With road to war and redline she has an inverter threaten 14 inches. With her rat 5 she can even bring a diffuser for another 2; something that Axis has issues with. Even better if you want to do jank with jackhammer the inverter can move 3 inches from road to war then run 12, since redline is a speed not movement buff, for a 16 inch jackhammer threat. Noone else in our faction can put out those kind of threat ranges.
She herself also brings a pretty good threat. She's mat 9, pow 16, threat 11 with two initial attacks. It's similar to Lucant under positive charge or Axis under his feat, but more accurate (fewer attacks than Axis though). If you want a melee list that tanks up then you bring Lucant. If you want to bring TEPs then you're looking at Axis. But if you want a melee list that can hit your opponent in the face from downtown then you bring Locke.
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bundeez
Junior Strategist
Posts: 325
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Post by bundeez on Mar 17, 2018 11:05:40 GMT
I have played Syntherion a lot actually. Yes it is annoying to cast the buffs again, but it could be worse imo. Since you rarely have to allocate any Focus, your caster very often have 4, 5, 6 to spare to re-cast buffs. Good points Korianneder. I like the run-to-engage then Jackhammer tactic, that's quite usefull. Do you have any lists for her? I was thinking about the list I posted above, and thought that with almost no guns, it's gonna be hard to clear charge lanes, contestors etc... Any thoughts about including the 2 merc jacks? At first I didn't think it was a good idea due to Induction and Focus efficiency, but if you only use them for the run-to-engage tactic, Locke doesn't need to allocate anything to them (I assume they still get to powerup). For that purpose I like the Toro a lot. Very cheap compared to Convergence jacks at same level, good SPD, good P+S and reach. Convergence Army - 75 / 75 points (Locke 1) Aurum Lucanum Athanor Locke [+29] - Assimilator [16] - Cipher [16] - Corollary [6] - Inverter [15] - Inverter [15] - Toro [13] - Toro [13] Accretion Servitors [2] Algorithmic Dispersion Optifex [2] Algorithmic Dispersion Optifex [2] Elimination Servitors [0] Elimination Servitors [0] Elimination Servitors [0] Optifex Directive [4] Toros instead of Conservators, 2 ADO's for easier Jackhammers. "Only" 3 free cards, so last 2 points are repair servitors, but could be used otherwise. Upgrade Inverters maybe.
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