bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
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Post by bluebeard on Mar 5, 2018 9:58:05 GMT
As the title hints to; does anyone have any good theories as to why PP keeps developing limited release factions, instead of finishing Retribution?
Here are some observations that I have gathered in reguard to this. 1. Caster count Retribution - 12 Other factions - 16~21 (low - Mercs, high - Cryx) the only faction less than ours currently is minions...seriously! ? How long will PP make us wait. How many years has our faction been out? Since 2009....let that sink in...9 years. 2. Wajacks (includes characters) Retribution - 19 Others - 20~25, avg 22.7(minions not included, because they just recently were considered a "faction".) 3. Unit types Retribution has yet to get a medium, multi-wound infantry model. I had thought Ellowuyrr swordsmen were to be that archtype, but nope.
Sorry if this rant is bothersome to a lot of people, but I needed to unload somewhere. I was just hoping to be a full faction by now. I guess limited releases (Convergence, Grymkin, and now Crucible) will be the future for this company. Am I the only one that is feeling a tad left out?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 5, 2018 12:13:36 GMT
Ret seems to have missed out on the 'Theme Force Centric' releases that are now the norm, in their latest spate of releases they got if I remember correctly:
- Hemera - Ryssovass Defenders - Spears of Scyrah - Lys Healer - Priest of Nyssor
If you compare those 5 releases to the 8-11 new releases that now come with themes, Ret do seem to have been short changed.
With regards to Heavy Infantry however I don't think Ret will ever get any, for the same reason Cygnar will never get any Heavy Infantry, and the same reason Khador will never get arc nodes, it is not within the basic design of the faction
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Mar 5, 2018 15:45:27 GMT
What exactly does "finishing" Retribution mean?
Like, I'm not trying to be a dick here but that just sounds like a way to rephrase "Why can't I have more stuff" in a way that makes it sound like you have the high ground I guess?
Ret has gotten the same number of releases as every other Warmachine faction since it released, with the exception of the MkIII Command book releases where it got more than everyone else*. At no point has anyone said anything about "finishing" any faction, nor has Ret gotten passed over for releases in any way. Nearly half the factions in Warmachine/Hordes haven't gotten a "Theme Force Centric" release because *drum roll* they release one at a time and time is, sadly, linear. Protectorate, Circle, Mercs, and Skorne are also waiting for their theme force CIDs, that's just how it is; someone needs to be near the back.
I'm really trying not to be an ass here but it's been, as you pointed out, 9 years. 9 years of the same complaints about Ret not getting special treatment to get "caught up" to the original 4 factions in terms of model count. Nowhere has there ever (to the best of my knowledge) been any sort of statement from PP that there was an intent to get Ret to release parity, it's simply not practical. Are you expecting them to just dump 10 half-tested warcasters on us all at once? Or should we spend an entire 3-week CID testing just those casters?
Not only that, but they've repeatedly stated that faction parity is not a goal any longer (as much as it ever was). Not everyone gets the same things; Cygnar also doesn't have multi-wound infantry in-faction because some things just don't fit in with the style of some factions. Get over it.
I have plenty of things that I'm unhappy with in Ret right now. I was super disappointed to see that so many Ret models didn't get touched in the MkIII transition and I loathe the current setup of our theme forces. But what you're asking for (demanding even) here is just a completely different level, claiming to be owed something that was literally never once promised. The things you are asking for (at least your first two points, who knows about the third) aren't going to happen. They just aren't.
*Ret Command releases: G4, Hemera, Ryssovass, Ellowuyr + UA, Spears, Shyeel Arcanists, Fane Guardian, Priest of Nyssor, Aelyth
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Post by CaptCommy on Mar 5, 2018 18:39:39 GMT
Ret seems to have missed out on the 'Theme Force Centric' releases that are now the norm, in their latest spate of releases they got if I remember correctly: - Hemera - Ryssovass Defenders - Spears of Scyrah - Lys Healer - Priest of Nyssor If you compare those 5 releases to the 8-11 new releases that now come with themes, Ret do seem to have been short changed. With regards to Heavy Infantry however I don't think Ret will ever get any, for the same reason Cygnar will never get any Heavy Infantry, and the same reason Khador will never get arc nodes, it is not within the basic design of the faction They also got Goreshade4, Fane Knight Guardian, Ellowuyr Swordsmen, House Shyeel Arcanists, Nyss Priest, and Aelyth Vyr in that same batch. It's pretty comparable in size to what Legion is getting with their new theme.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Mar 5, 2018 18:56:56 GMT
Ret seems to have missed out on the 'Theme Force Centric' releases that are now the norm, in their latest spate of releases they got if I remember correctly: - Hemera - Ryssovass Defenders - Spears of Scyrah - Lys Healer - Priest of Nyssor If you compare those 5 releases to the 8-11 new releases that now come with themes, Ret do seem to have been short changed. With regards to Heavy Infantry however I don't think Ret will ever get any, for the same reason Cygnar will never get any Heavy Infantry, and the same reason Khador will never get arc nodes, it is not within the basic design of the faction They also got Goreshade4, Fane Knight Guardian, Ellowuyr Swordsmen, House Shyeel Arcanists, Nyss Priest, and Aelyth Vyr in that same batch. It's pretty comparable in size to what Legion is getting with their new theme. Shows how good my memory is...
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bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
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Post by bluebeard on Mar 5, 2018 21:37:12 GMT
It's not that I "want more things", but when your faction is considered a 'main' faction now; a bit of equality in depth would be nice. As it looks right now Ret answers some questions, but doesn't ask very many. If this theme mechanic is the norm from now on. I would like more depth for those themes. Believe it or not, themes has destroyed or faction identity by handicapping you if you use the factions best synergies.
I believe we are good in the units section, sans the multi wound. Ret is also good to go in the huge base department and the solos area. Where I believe the improvements should be made is our counter-intuitive themes and small choices of casters. Our 12 does not compare to 19-21 of the other factions. There is room for some epic versions of certain casters that could and should be developed.
Yes I realize Retribution has received a lot of new stuff, but nothing that helps to fix root issues. There are things that need improved or better developed within the game as is, rather than releasing new factions into the mix.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Mar 6, 2018 17:27:44 GMT
What root issues? Ret had plenty of problems early on, the biggest bugaboo for years was Stealth until Issyria and the Houseguard Thane dropped. What other root issues does Ret have?
I ask again, how exactly would you propose Ret suddenly get 9 new casters to "catch up" and maintain anything resembling balance in those casters? What actual problems do they need to solve besides "I want more choices"? More stuff is not itself an end goal if that stuff is bad; would you be content if they released 9 new casters that were all on the same level as say Ravyn or Garryth? Would the faction be in a better spot just because our numbers are the same now? Grymkin and Convergence have half the casters we do and they're in a perfectly good place.
Everything you're talking about is just vague complaining that other factions have more toys than us with no actual core argument about why that matters or why you feel it's deserved when it was never promised.
I'm not going to argue about theme forces, I agree Ret's theme forces have problems. The difference is that I have a very specific list of problems with the available theme forces. They are, in short:
Forges of War: Too limiting (doesn't allow Vyre), restricts fun and interesting support/hybrid solos to lists without any models they were designed to support. Defenders of Ios: Too many models that don't benefit from the theme; needs a narrower focus, broader benefits, or both. Shadows of the Retribution: Lacks access to support/hybrid models to create interesting combos, ends up being samey and straightforward as a result. Legions of Dawn: Primary benefit is counter-synergistic with 2/3rds of the Dawnguard warcasters, benefit is severely restricted by JM availability.
Those are descriptive, useful criticism. Those can be discussed, debated, and revised. "Our 12 does not compare to 19-21 of the other factions. There is room for some epic versions of certain casters that could and should be developed." isn't actionable, it's just noise; give some concrete examples of what the faction is lacking besides a sum of model types. What problem, other than the problem of having more stuff, would getting a bunch of new casters solve?
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Post by onijet01 on Mar 6, 2018 18:19:20 GMT
Okay Devils Advocate time.
Bluebeard i understand your "Opinion" about Retribution, but the understanding about the faction is incorrect.
First Retribution was the mkii start faction. Dispite having mki rules released it was primarily the first mkii faction made in 2009. In the transfer from mkii to mkiii the faction saw a substantial increase in model abilities. (Some amazing some blah) but that happened.
Not to tear apart points. Warjacks out side of 3 spesific models all our warjacks are multipurpose taking both range and melee output into the game. Exeptions to the top of my head. Gryghon, aspis, helios(no range damage)
Every heavy is multi rolled as well and can go point for point with other like minded models.
Hydra compares well to the defender, reconer, mariner type warjacks. And has fair melee presence to boot. Chain attack is huge on a gun.
Units. Yes we have no medium based units but our infantry is slightly abouve the average for models with similar rolls.
Solos well thats a toss up as solos are so broad.
Warcasters again we have better warcaster kits than most factions. Our casters usually bring a defensive buff (def or arm), and offensive buff in the form of armor reduction, pathfinder, enhanced speed, or ranged buff.
What we do not have are speciality casters who excell at one thing. Examples sloan, nemo 1, feora 1, siege 1.
That does not mean that we are any weaker but we lack specilized options.
Now for theme forces you can always build a list out of theme to ask questions and force answers from your opponents. Yah you get no free points but mixed arms have a advantage as well.
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Munindk
Junior Strategist
Posts: 210
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Post by Munindk on Mar 7, 2018 13:57:12 GMT
I dont see the need for more stuff. As others have pointed out the major faction issue is that our combined arms faction identity doesnt translate well into theme forces where you tend to specialize.
I think a theme force like Mercs Irregulars would allow us to field combined arms forces.
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Post by jediguru on Mar 7, 2018 18:18:47 GMT
I remember when Mk3 first dropped and everyone kept saying how Ret was among the top factions now. What happened?
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Mar 7, 2018 18:56:44 GMT
I remember when Mk3 first dropped and everyone kept saying how Ret was among the top factions now. What happened? Themes.
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bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
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Post by bluebeard on Mar 8, 2018 0:53:45 GMT
I would just like to take this moment and apologize for my ranting. After considering what you all have said, it does sound like I was just complaining. Thank you all for your blunt honesty.
I believe it all stemmed from my frustration of not being able to build lists that I used to. Not being able to use most models in my collection together was maddening. Again, sorry for my weak moment.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Mar 8, 2018 11:28:44 GMT
I would just like to take this moment and apologize for my ranting. After considering what you all have said, it does sound like I was just complaining. Thank you all for your blunt honesty. I believe it all stemmed from my frustration of not being able to build lists that I used to. Not being able to use most models in my collection together was maddening. Again, sorry for my weak moment. No worries dude. For what it's worth I do apologise for how harsh my first post was. It reminded me too much of stuff like the "Wait For Issyria" meme back when half the discussions on the official board were about how if Issyria wasn't good people were going to quit the faction. I definitely agree on themes though, the Ret ones are really limiting right now and I'm hoping that when our CID comes around they spend a little time at least tweaking a couple to open up some options. There are times when I wish Ret had just been a limited release faction and had been tuned accordingly lol. The best thing any of us can do I think is to really examine what the factions problems are so we can present them clearly when the time comes. The more concrete, actionable feedback the community can pass off to PP the better.
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Post by jediguru on Mar 8, 2018 13:47:27 GMT
I would just like to take this moment and apologize for my ranting. After considering what you all have said, it does sound like I was just complaining. Thank you all for your blunt honesty. I believe it all stemmed from my frustration of not being able to build lists that I used to. Not being able to use most models in my collection together was maddening. Again, sorry for my weak moment. What! A rational person on the Internet actually changing their stance on a topic and admitting they may have been wrong in what they said earlier!? Surely not! We need more people like you on here I think.
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Post by onijet01 on Mar 9, 2018 17:02:28 GMT
I would just like to take this moment and apologize for my ranting. After considering what you all have said, it does sound like I was just complaining. Thank you all for your blunt honesty. I believe it all stemmed from my frustration of not being able to build lists that I used to. Not being able to use most models in my collection together was maddening. Again, sorry for my weak moment. Hey its okay i choose to be blunt mostly because i personally feel information should never be sugar coated. Were all ret players and thats amazing. Now about your comment about not being able to make the same lists, lets rotate this forum discussion i to one to help you get those amazing lists for yiur pkaystyle and meta. Elves Unite.
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