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Post by hocestbellum on Oct 9, 2018 9:08:10 GMT
Okay, a few things leaping out at me here:
Ram still works if the model is pushed 0", which is, I assume, what you mean was happening there?
I think the critical point was your spell choices on your feat turn. You kept Fury on the Conquest and put Ravager on Ruin. Whilst I don't know what the board state looked like, Fury on Ruin (as you say) would have been better for dealing with Rok, and Ravager on the Grolar would have let it effectively get three extra attacks into Rok/Champs/whatever.
I think you're jumping the gun in removing the Widowmakers, as they are pretty much the best token generators available to you against any force that isn't 5hp models.
The Spriggan is pretty good with B2, but it really needs Ravager to shine.
A slightly left-field pick, if you find B2 getting a lot of fire, is the Rager. It can let you play a bit forwards, but it can also effectively have three initials at MAT8 with the Rage tokens on your feat turn, and can get quite a lot done for 10 points.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Oct 9, 2018 9:37:40 GMT
So to make sure I have Ram right: you hit a model, there's nowhere to push it. After the attack has finished the grolar can still advance 1" directly towards the model? If the model dies it can still make a 1" advance straight ahead? A yes to both of those makes it much more viable for sure.
Yes I agree, my spell selection was off. Ruin got Ravager because there were around 3 champions, Skaldi and the axer all in a 2" melee range bubble. So I wanted to make sure I had the attacks to kill them all. It wasn't until partway through the turn that I realized I could reach Rok and by then it was too late for Fury. Sadly the grolar was too far away from where Butcher wanted to be/would move to cast Ravager there. As well as the spell errors there were definitely allocation and positioning errors on my part. Allocation was wrong on a few focus and several rage tokens, which would have helped my turn a lot.
Yeah dropping the widowmakers is tough, but they're just getting in my way a lot and generally aren't lasting until feat turn. I'm thinking Kell because he can still generate 2 tokens, or kill one 5 box model, and he has magic attacks which is nice. If I can find some points I can get the widowmakers back in.
I did like the spriggan in the first game. I'm actually wondering if I go grolar and spriggan so that I have a couple tools for different jobs. Probably by removing a unit of eliminators to upgrade the kodiak.
I've been looking at the rager with B2 actually and think it looks legit. I'm struggling to find points without dropping the conquest and mechaniks for three or so jacks (rager/rager/grolar or rager/spriggan/marauder for example). Or drop it, the war dog and mechaniks for a rager/kodiak/kodiak plus get the second eliminator unit back. Lots to try!
Cheers, Dave
P.S. My games are going to be Vassal only for the foreseeable, so am going to try taking turn by turn screenshots and try to get pictures up.
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Post by hocestbellum on Oct 9, 2018 10:17:09 GMT
Ram triggers on hit. The exact text is 'Ram: When an enemy model is hit by this attack during this model's combat action, it becomes knocked down and can be pushed 1" directly away from this model. If the model hit is pushed, this model can immediately advance 1" directly towards it'
You have to choose to trigger the push to get the advance. If they've got a rule like 'This model cannot be pushed', then you don't get the advance. However, if you push them any distance, even 0", (because of an obstruction, say) then they are still pushed, and you can advance.
Since Ram triggers before damage, it does not matter if the model dies or not, as Ram will have fully resolved before then.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Oct 9, 2018 10:25:44 GMT
Ok good to know. So the issue I'm having is that it's very difficult to get to medium based models at the back of a triangle due to the 1" melee. That's where I'm preferring the spriggan.
So in the game I just played the champions contesting my flag were in one of these blocks. Because I couldn't get to the one at the back I left them and went for the play I did. A spriggan could have got into base to base and once either of the front models were cleared it could reach the model at the back.
Cheers, Dave
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Oct 10, 2018 1:54:12 GMT
Ram and Beat Back are often confused for each other. Ram triggers and applies on hit, but beat back doesn't take place until the attack is resolved.
Oh, and I resemble that remark about dirty trolls!
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Oct 10, 2018 5:16:57 GMT
Yeah I'm currently leaning towards the spriggan because of how Ram works (or doesn't) in the list. That said, I'm planning on trying a grolar with Vlad3 shortly because +2SPD, Ram and Side Step seems like a thing to get a jack places.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 10, 2018 6:07:54 GMT
Do Ram and Side-Step stack? I think there's a rule somewhere that says you can only benefit from one rule that grants movement off the same trigger? Or is that only for end-of-activation movement (like Sprint and Repo)?
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Post by welshhoppo on Oct 10, 2018 6:57:25 GMT
Do Ram and Side-Step stack? I think there's a rule somewhere that says you can only benefit from one rule that grants movement off the same trigger? Or is that only for end-of-activation movement (like Sprint and Repo)? Ram triggers and is resolved on hit, Side-Step triggers on hit but is resolved once the attack is complete. Curiously, a Rager would get three side steps as it's cannon counts as an initial melee attack.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Oct 10, 2018 7:10:40 GMT
You can only benefit from one end of activation movement like reposition and sprint, never seen anything regarding Ram and Side Step though. Like welshhoppo says, they trigger at the same time but resolve at different times.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 10, 2018 8:25:04 GMT
Cool.
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Post by michael on Oct 11, 2018 0:55:17 GMT
Ram and Side Step work fine together. The Grolar can do both.
You’re all thinking of multiple “end of activation” movements, of which you can only have one because, you know, your activation ends.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Oct 29, 2018 8:37:55 GMT
Vlad2 vs Jarl, Spread the Net
Been busy for a while due to a big move bought on by work, but finally managed to get a game in with a friend on Vassal. My pair was this Vlad2 list and Butcher2 in Jaws of the Wolf, opponent had the Jarl list here and a Horgle list. I felt Vlad was better due to tough messing up Butcher's fun sometimes. Here's the lists:
Armored Korps Vlad2 +27 -Rager -10 -Spriggan -17 Eilish Garrity -5 Man o War Assault Chariot -14 Man o War Kovnik -4 Man o War Strike Tanker -5 Man o War Suppression Tanker -0(6) Man o War Suppression Tanker -0(6) Battle Mechaniks (Min) -3 Battle Mechaniks (Min) -3 Kommandant Atanas & Standard Bearer -7 Man o War Demolition Corps (Max) -14 -Sergeant Dragos Dragodovich -0(6) Mano War Shock Troopers (Max) -16 -Man o War Shock Trooper Officer -4
Band of Heroes Jarl Skuld -Dire Troll Bomber -19 -Dire Troll Brawler -16 Fell Caller Hero -0 Stone Scribe Chronicler -4 Kriel Warriors (Max) -11 -Kriel Warrior Standard & Piper -3 Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (Min) -6 -Stone Scribe Elder -3 Sons of Bragg -11 Trollkin Champions (Max) -16 -Skaldi Bonehammer -0 Trollkin Fennblades (Max) -15 -Trollkin Fennblade Officer & Drummer -0
Set Up:
Opponent wins the roll and opts for first turn, letting me choose board edge. There was a large obstruction right in the middle of the circular zone and rubble between it and my deployment zone. There was a hill to my left near the flag there and a wall in my rectangular zone. There was a wall in my opponents rectangle zone, water between the big obstruction and their deployment and more rubble slightly to the right of that as I look at it. There was more water on my opponents left flank too.
He deployed Jarl centrally with the stone unit. Bomber was to my right and brawler to my left. Fennblades were also on my right along with the fellcaller, chronicler and Sons of Bragg. Kriel warriors and champions took my left flank. I deployed Vlad just left of center. The chariot, a suppression tanker and the strike tanker were to his left with the spriggan between Vlad and them and some mechaniks behind them. The shock troopers were right of center with demos right/behind them. Rager is set to move behind the wall in my rectangle zone and the second suppression tanker is on my right flank. Atanas, the kovnik, the second mechanik unit and Eilish all follow this clump. I advance move the chariot, all three tankers and the shock troopers.
Turn 1:
Quicken goes on the fennblades and Weald Secrets goes on the kreil warriors. Everything basically runs up the board. Stone puts up armour buff and rolls three fury on it's generator thingy.
Shock troopers get desperate pace and advance up in shield wall before also receiving retaliatory strike from Atanas (kovnik and Atanas aren't far behind). Demos also run up on that flank, three behind the shocks, three further out on my right. The rager runs up behind the wall in the zone. Tanker on my right advances and sticks down a covering fire. Mechaniks all follow up on this flank. Vlad sticks Arcane Might on himself and Hand of Fate on the chariot before advancing and putting down a Wind Blast to restrict the bombers options. Chariot moves further out on my left and fires some shots, killing a kreil. The strike tanker advances and kills another before the suppression tanker advances and puts out more covering fire. The spriggan runs up, staying out of brawler threat range before the mechaniks run up on that flank. Eilish follows behind everything.
Turn 2:
Fury comes in and upkeeps stay up. Jarl casts Magic Bullet and Farstrike on himself, advances and kills Eilish, bouncing into Atanas but not killing him. Second shot kills a mechanik on my left. He uses swift hunter to get behind the central obstruction. The fennblades use their mini-feat and charge. They damage the right suppression tanker, kill a demo corps and damage a couple shock troopers, loosing three to retaliatory strikes. The bomber advances awkwardly and chucks two bombs at the closest shock trooper. Rager shield guards and a mechanik is caught in the blast, triggering Righteous Vengeance on Vlad. Second bomb kills the injured shock trooper. Kriel warriors run up on my left, blocking a few options there. Champions and brawler run up, staying out of spriggan threat range. Stone gets another three fury and puts up no continuous effects while advancing. Chronicler runs to my opponents flag.
Both spells upkept, Vlad keeps six focus. Righteous Vengeance forces a tough on a fellblade engaging a shock trooper, knocking him down. Vengeance on demo corps kills a couple more fennblades too. Shocks shield wall up, killing several fennblades and knocking down the UA. Rager also kills a blocking fennblade. Strike tanker takes my flag, killing a kriel in melee and another with shooting, clearing the flag. The chariot advances up, killing a kriel in melee, knocking down the piper and putting some damage into Skaldi and two champions (which is spread around). The suppression then advances and sprays the same three models, spreading more damage around the unit. Mechaniks on that flank run up and the other mechaniks repair the right suppression tanker, a damaged demo corps and Atanas. The spriggan charges a champion, putting more damage into the unit. Atanas advances, puts Relentless Charge on the demo corps and kills the fennblade UA with his handcannon. The kovnik advances a shoots the fennblade Vlad knocked down (should have put Desperate Pace on the demo corps instead, but momentarily forgot I couldn't feat on Dragos). Vlad finally goes and moves Hand of Fate to the demo corps before feating on four demo corps and the strike tanker. They use Bond of Brotherhood and charge through the shock troopers. Three get to the bomber, Dragos runs base to base and the last one charges the fennblade engaging the suppression tanker. Fennblade and bomber die. Finally the suppression tanker advances up and sprays, killing the fennblade drummer. I've contested the flag with a demo corps and the rectangle zone with the chariot while clearing my rectangle and flag. Central circle is filled with stuff, so nothing there.
Khador: 2 Trolls: 0
Turn 3:
Opponent is in a kinda bad spot. Upkeeps are dropped. Stone puts up strength buff and the champions and brawler take out the chariot and spriggan. Kriel warriors bounce off the two tankers next to my flag. Fell caller hero and Sons of Bragg try to shift the demo corps, but I spread damage around and don't loose any. Jarl puts two fully boosted shots into Vlad (camping one), but just chips a couple points, before putting Quicken on himself. He then feats, rolling max clouds and blanketing my army. We each score our rectangle zones, the flags are both contested.
Khador: 3 Trolls: 1
I drop Arcane Might, keep Hand of Fate for free. Vlad goes to seven focus and Might of Kings is triggered. Vengeance attacks on the demo corps kill two Sons of Bragg and the fell caller hero. It's getting late, so Vlad casts Hand of Fate on himself, Wind Blast to remove the blocking clouds and charges base to base with Jarl. Boosts the charge, then buys an attack. Jarl fails tough!
Victory to Khador!
First time playing Armored Korps following CiD and pleased overall!
The sensible option on that final turn was to keep Hand of Fate on the demo corps, who could easily push round the rock, removing the last models on my right and beginning to sweep towards the other flank. This would allow the shock troopers to shield wall round my side of the obstruction towards the champs and brawler, supported by Vlad, the kovnik and Atanas. Rager is happy in his zone and there's nothing left to contest. All three tankers are still up and the two on my left are going to take some shifting while sticking out solid damage. But it was getting late!
The list felt solid I think. Eilish didn't do anything, but Jarl is great at hunting solos and I didn't place him well. He's mainly there to stop nasty upkeeps on my units, which I think he'll be solid at. Double mechaniks worked well, allowing me to support both flanks at the same time and providing extra advance moves. Shock took the alpha really well and the demos counter attacked nicely. Would have been even better if I'd remembered to Desperate Pace them! Would have allowed Dragos to reach the bomber, probably allowing a couple other feated models to redirect onto solos etc. So glad Atanas has Tactician! My only wish is that it affected mechaniks as well.
Thanks for reading!
Cheers, Dave
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Post by hocestbellum on Nov 5, 2018 19:32:33 GMT
Nice report, it didn't look you were ever in a bad spot tbh. Anything you would change about the list?
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Nov 6, 2018 9:13:51 GMT
Thanks!
My left flank was folding pretty fast, in my last turn it was just a pair of tankers with a few mechaniks. So I was going to start struggling to hold that flank up. Though like I say, the demos and shocks would be coming round either side of the obstruction in the middle, so would be stuck in pretty quickly.
Tough one on the list! Didn't get much time with Eilish, so kinda looking at him becoming eliminators. But I'm just paranoid of something like Refuge landing on my units. Just need to protect him better. With the chariot there I don't think I desperately need the eliminators for contesting either.
Part of me wants to add to the gunline aspect with bombadiers replacing the shock troopers, but I'm not convinced there. Think that might be Vlad1's plan instead. Didn't feel overloaded with support since I only have the mechaniks, one kovnik and Atanas. The mechaniks provide a couple advance moves no matter what, so I actually like the two units.
So basically, maybe Eilish, but quite probably not.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Jan 10, 2019 7:18:46 GMT
Old Witch1 vs Ragnor, Invasion
Time to try out Old Witch with both Sorscha0 and the adjunct. Lists are:
Winter Guard Kommand Old Witch1 +18 -Greylord Adjunct -4 -Scrapjack -Juggernaut -13 -Juggernaut -13 Winter Guard Gun Carriage -17 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff -4 -Destroyer -14 Kovnik Joe -4 Winter Guard Field Gun -4 Winter Guard Field Gun -4 Winter Guard Infantry (Max) -10 -Winter Guard Officer & Standard -0(4) -Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) -6 Winter Guard Mortar -0(5)
Storm of the North Ragnor Skysplitter +30 -Trollkin Runebearer -0 -Glacier King -35 -Slag Troll -10 Fell Caller Hero -0 Valka Curseborn, Chieftain of the North -0 Trollkin Champions (Max) -16 -Skaldi -5 Krielstone (Max) -9 -Northkin Elder -3 Northkin Bear Handler & Battle Bears -10 Northkin Bear Handler & Battle Bears -10 Northkin Fire Eaters -7
Set Up:
I win the roll and choose first turn, my opponent selecting the side with a burning hill in a sweet spot for his fire eaters, which gives me the side with several forests as hoped. We have a building in the middle of the board, slightly to my right but largely blocking the central zone. There's a forest round my objective and forests on my left and right flanks, plus a wall just into the circular zone on my left. My opponents side has a regular hill to his left and the burning hill to his right, somewhat central. No other terrain comes up.
Mindful of the bears, I deploy tight in the middle. The gun carriage and a juggernaut are to my right and the destroyer and other juggernaut are to my left. Field guns on both flanks and the mortar on my left. Scrapjack is slightly to my right and the infantry deploy in a blob in the middle with Sorscha and Joe behind them. My opponent puts the glacier king on my left, the champions on my right and Ragnor central with the stone and slag troll. Both bear units ambush and the fire eaters advance deploy behind the burning hill. I advance move my three heavies up the board. We both have healing objectives.
Turn 1:
Apparate the battlegroup forward, then generally run up with everything after casting Iron Flesh on the infantry and Avatar of Slaughter on Scrapjack. Old Witch advances and places a Murder of Crows in contact with the building to block most line of sight for the fire eaters. Sorscha casts Fog of War on herself so the Old Witch gains stealth and the adjunct puts a cloud on Scrapjack to trigger prowl on him too. Scrapjack ends up behind the central house.
Opponent also generally runs forward, dumping most fury into the stone and putting up dig in on Ragnor. The fire eaters get a couple assault sprays into the juggernaut on my left, but don't do any damage (only one was boosted because the other couldn't charge and go through the burning hill).
Turn 2:
I upkeep Avatar of Slaughter, Iron Flesh and Fog of War before allocating 1 focus to the destroyer and 2 to Scrapjack. Apparate models around a bit, the juggernauts each toeing into the circle zones on their flanks. Scrapjack can charge one of the fire eaters killing it and the other one nearby thanks to berserk and overtake. The gun carriage moves up and drops rough terrain on the champions before repositioning back to be out of threat range of any bears on my right. The destroyer advances and tags the stone, killing a couple guys and knocking the stone down. The mortar follows up and another stone person dies. Field guns reposition at the back. Old Witch advances, feats, returns Scrapjack with Unseen Path then casts Murder of Crows between the glacier king and juggernaut on my left, blocking line of sight. Winter guard position to be annoying in the middle and Sorscha advances to stealth Old Witch and Scrapjack again.
A bear unit ambushes on on both flanks. Ragnor advances, misses an AoE spell into a winter guard thanks to Fog of War, feats and digs in next to his objective. The glacier king can't get to the juggernaut due to a wall, so simply runs to contest the central zone and the one on my left. Stone fairly stays put. Champions and bears try to run to engage, but keep taking damage and getting knocked down by the feat or getting killed outright.
Turn 3:
I again upkeep everything except Murder of Crows before allocating 2 focus to the juggernaut on my right. Left juggernaut apparates out of melee with the glacier king and the right one apparates around the champion in it's way, which Scrapjack apparates towards. Between the field guns, gun carriage, Scrapjack, both juggernauts and Sorscha I clear up both bear units and the remaining champions. The destroyer goes into the glacier king to body block it reaching a juggernaut. I could teleport Old Witch into the right zone to score, but this puts a juggernaut out of control range for next turn. I figure I need to keep a threat in place against the glacier king for next turn (currently both juggernauts are set to reach it next turn), so don't go for the points. Instead she puts Murder of Crows up to block the kings line of right to my right flank. A couple more stone guys die, leaving the stone, a dude and the UA.
Valka and the glacier king leave the destroyer on 3 boxes and stationary with no cortex, plus a few winter guard die to the king as well. A fellcaller runs to block the juggernaut on my right flank and to contest the zone. Ragnor Hex Blasts a winter guard to remove Iron Flesh and the slag troll kills another winter guard. The runebearer knocks down the left juggernaut with a spell.
Turn 4:
I see an opening to Ragnor, who's camping 1 fury. Apparate models around, right juggernaut going further right round the fellcaller and Scrapjack apparating to the right of the building. Drop Avatar of Slaughter and keep Fog of War. The right juggernaut kills the fellcaller while between a field gun and the gun carriage (with Guidance from the adjunct) I finish the stone unit. Scrapjack now runs round the right of the house, engaging Ragnor to remove dig in. The mortar hits the objective, but blast doesn't damage Ragnor. Old Witch casts Avatar of Slaughter on herself, then Unseen Path to teleport into Ragnor's back arc. She has 5 attacks at MAT8 P&S15 into DEF12 ARM16. Unfortunately I roll snake eyes for one damage roll and Ragnor toughs twice in a row, leaving him on a box. I think if I'd rolled a 4 instead of a 2 on that damage roll I'd have forced a third tough check.
Ragnor turns around and blats Old Witch easily.
Victory to Trollbloods!
Good old failed assassination runs! To be fair, I went for that because it was getting late so I wanted to pack it in. My better play was to load both juggernauts (the left spending 1 to shake knockdown) and apparate them both towards the glacier king. I could then get Boundless Charge on one of them easily, probably not both though. Then both can get into the king, plus I can CRA with about 8 infantry, shoot with both field guns and the mortar, plus even the gun carriage if needed. If I go the same way with one field gun and the gun carriage the stone is dead before all this happens too, meaning it's ARM is dropped nicely. At that point it becomes Ragnor, a slag troll, Valka, a runebearer and a fellcaller against everything except the destroyer and some infantry. Old Witch and Scrappy stay safe through that too. But was happy to try the assassination run!
I think the greylord adjunct and Sorscha0 make Old Witch 1 viable as a caster choice. She has a lot of tricks to get into, plus I think the feat is getting better as medium infantry shows up more often.
My concern with my list after a couple games is a lack of a damage buff outside Boundless Charge and a weakness to huge bases. Fortunately I think I can solve both these issues with the following changes:
Winter Guard Kommand Old Witch1 +18 -Greylord Adjunct -4 -Scrapjack -Marauder -11 -Marauder -11 Winter Guard Gun Carriage -17 Kovnik Apprentice Kratikoff -4 -Destroyer -14 Kovnik Joe -4 Lady Aiyana & Master Holt -8 -Koldun Kapitan Valachev -4 Winter Guard Field Gun -0(4) Winter Guard Infantry (Max) -10 -Winter Guard Officer & Standard -0(4) -Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) -6
I went with a free field gun over a mortar because I feel the extra source of knockdown is more useful than another AoE. I already have the gun carriage, destroyer, Old Witch/Scrapjack and winter guard sprays for dealing with infantry while knockdown only comes from the feat, marauders and the gun carriage. However if I feel I miss being able to drop POW10 blast into the back lines I'll try switching back to the mortar. I only get two advance moves in this list, but I don't think it's an issue since generally the destroyer can run turn 1 and be pretty happy.
That's it for now! Should get a test in with the new list before long.
Thanks for reading!
Cheers, Dave
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