tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Jun 28, 2018 8:33:52 GMT
Good questions! I'm like that this Thyron discussion spills into universal ret problem solving and offlist discussion. so does it just come down to eating a free strike based on it being a calculated risk? Of course it's a calculated risk that isn't taken when the reward (read: cleave on an enemy model) isn't good enough. That being said, ret light jacks are surprisingly resilient against the first free strike. For example, a Juggernaut, needs to do 28 points (9+ with 3d) of damage and roll 5 to cripple all the right hand system boxes. 30 points and roll of 4 cripples the cortex system boxes (and removes focus points). Roughly speaking, Griffon has about 70% (5/6*(1-1/3*1/2) --> 5/6*5/6)) chance of not being frozen and crippled by ice axe hit. Most heavies are significantly less dangerous than Juggernaut. Enemy warcaster relying solely on heavy free strike for protection is easy pickings. So what would your off list be? I have a dislike of Backlash for a number of reasons (reliability of dealing genuinely loads of plink damage which no-one can outside of Iron Mother in Destruction Initiative, how little effect it has on Gaspy3 Slayer spam, how much risk it poses to the caster in question, especially Kae since she needs to be within 8" as she has no other spells worth casting via an arc node etc.) and though it can apply some pressure, most of my opponents have learned to weather it due to how unreliable the damage a Ret sourced Backlash can actually do (simply checking for assassination threats more). With Disrupt, it's a purely targeted tactic with Ret, so it doesn't quite work against jack spam in my experience. Good points. My experience is that backlash is the best the ret can do against heavy spam (I'm not saying it's super good answer to economy heavy spam, but beggars can't be choosers). When building a backlash list it's all in, no half measures. Every model has to be weighted carefully against other options so that optimal backlash list is created. I'm obviously playing a Shadows list, because +1 to starting roll and Nayl are impossible for me to ignore. To be honest, I'm not completely sure on Goreshade. Kaelyssa is probably slightly better at personal assassination, but on the other hand Goreshade drives jacks and blings better. Kaelyssa list is otherwise identical, but swaps Sphinx and escort for Hydra. Comments are welcome. Retribution Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Shadows of the Retribution [Goreshade 4] Lord Ghyrrshyld, The Forgiven [+28] - Chimera [8] - Chimera [8] - Daemon [16] - Griffon [8] - Griffon [8] - Griffon [8] - Sphinx [13] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios [0(7)] Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress [4] Nayl [3] Mage Hunter Strike Force (max) [16] - Mage Hunter Strike Force Commander [4] - Soulless Escort (1) [1] The basic tactic is to hone in on a single enemy heavy and kill it with bling damage. Daemon, Chimera and E1 keep the enemy warcaster honest by preventing him from hiding behind warjack screen. Rest of the force buys time. Anyway, you mentioned Grymkin being your other loss, would you play Thyron/jacks/Shadows again into it or something else (obviously a Backlash/Disrupt plan wouldn't work, but then it is a different problem altogether)? I would definitely play Thyron against Grymkin again. The problem with previous match that ret heavies couldn't take enough table space during 1st turn. Ret lights are so much better than ret heavies for that. My point is that since you will get the alpha, they'll eat it gladly because they've got the armour stack and boxes to be able to absorb whatever Thyron can throw (himself notwithstanding because committing him with the first charge is dumb). Obviously, there are bricks that you can't take head on (if there wasn't, everyone would be salting about ret and not about bricks.). Sometimes light jack threat projection causes enemy to hold back key models and waste a defensive feat. Backing off and committing during 3A should always be considered. Against warrior model brick lists, the Thyron list tries to create traffic jams and win on scenario or casterkill. Follow up: how do you deal with PT? 'cos I sure as hell don't know! What does PT mean?
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Jun 28, 2018 9:26:32 GMT
edit: just noticed I replied to a post from April... None taken. I think that your post is an excellent opportunity for me to highlight how my carefully thought positions have chang... evolved over time. Changing positions is weakness. We can't have that. I really don't see it happening. The biggest problem is Thyron doesn't have a threat extender... Lanyssa can be unreliable (you're counting on hitting with a MA 7). Assail being an upkeep is skornegistic with his feat if you need to hot swap it). The biggest problem with my heavy list was that Thyron (or ret in general) doesn't have a good universal threat debuffer. If Thyron had Burning Ash or Veil of Mists, the five heavy list could trade more effectively. I'm actually looking forward to testing Ravyn+Imperatus+some heavies and lights in Legions of Dawn in CID. The second problem is the lack of a damage buff. Ok, you can "buff" 2 jacks (out of the 5 you have) with the arcanists (that's not really a buff, they just hit like a lot of unbuffed jacks of other factions) but that's not enough for a consistent alpha. Yes, I agree for the most part. Lack of concentrated power (allocation is less of an issue) greatly reduces the viability of heavy spam. I however disagree that Ret heavy with Assail and concentrated power hits less hard than your standard nonbuffed heavy. Non-economy heavies charging into melee without free charges is rarely a good idea (economy heavies are happy to get into melee without being crippled. This is one of the reasons why economy jack spam is so popular). The third is... how do you feed all those jacks? Using the arcanists to conc power leaves his 6 foc to do it. You don't have shield guards, no artificier, no lyss healer, so... allocate what, 4? Upkeep storm rager and camp 1? That's gonna be tight to survive... For the most part, Storm rager is a trap spell. I rarely cast it. Perhaps when you can't meaningfully allocate anymore , because everyone is dead? Turn 5? In my opinion, the best way to protect Thyron from shooting is have a wall of light jacks that charge in and kill enemy shooting during 2A. Using shadows theme with Thyron is a little puzzling... I would think his biggest strength is spellpiercer. But then you're using the daemon and mage hunters... Why is that? If I'm going against list that relies on spell buffs to survive I'm already winning. Also, it's good to have models that don't rely on Thyron surprisingly small control area or activation to do stuff. Mage hunters should always be deployed to a flank where they cowardly bully a enemy that can't harm them effectively. I have heard that it's very annoying unit to play against. Daemon is a jack that kills a lot of light, medium and heavy infantry. My current position is that two melee light jacks are better at killing infantry with Thyron. However, considering how many times my Phoenix has missed its initial attack during feat turn (I dubbed it fail-phoenix after rolling two triple ones in two games), I may yet change it to Daemon.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jun 28, 2018 9:51:17 GMT
Of course it's a calculated risk that isn't taken when the reward (read: cleave on an enemy model) isn't good enough. That being said, ret light jacks are surprisingly resilient against the first free strike. For example, a Juggernaut, needs to do 28 points (9+ with 3d) of damage and roll 5 to cripple all the right hand system boxes. 30 points and roll of 4 cripples the cortex system boxes (and removes focus points). Roughly speaking, Griffon has about 70% (5/6*(1-1/3*1/2) --> 5/6*5/6)) chance of not being frozen and crippled by ice axe hit. Most heavies are significantly less dangerous than Juggernaut. Enemy warcaster relying solely on heavy free strike for protection is easy pickings. See, I gotta say, you're a braver man than me, 'cos it's that potential (operative word here, I'm aware) for the key system you need to make that Cleave attack. Heh, got that right! So double Shadows? For all the typical slowness of ARM skew lists, I fear that without someone like V2 (I actually quite like Rean Knopke's V2 Shadows list with 2 x trip Vyre lights), I can't seem to get my head around how the list handles the trading aspect. I mean, Spellpiercer is obviously a thing, but there's a lot of native high ARM which derives its roadblockiness from non-spell sources. If I (emphasis on the 'I' bit, since I've never seen you play) run these lists, I'll alpha 100% going first or second in all likelihood, but it'll be a complete no-sell because of the lack of aggregate damage (even if I have greater scenario presence), leaving me shitting myself with the counter-attack. :/ So is it a case of targets of opportunity or do you have a key jack to take down from the off? And vs Hordes (since we have been concentrating on the Warmachine side of the matchup)? I'm starting to get the impression the two of us have vastly different gameplay philosophies (nothing bad or anything, just that your lists still perplex me, somewhat), but could you clarify what you mean by 'take enough table space'? If by being able to threaten whole swathes of the board, I find that most of my opponents, after judicious questioning of what my models can do won't really care what a Ret light (well, Shyeel light, anyway, the Vyre lights still bother a lot) can threaten in terms of space because of what they have available that can easily remove it as an issue... With such a large battlegroup and only the one unit, can it create sufficient traffic jams to squeeze people out of scenario, especially since some of the lights will be sacrificed going into turn 3? Primal Terrors, usually some combination of Blightbringer, Golab, Chosen, Warspears, Warmongers, Hellmouths and perhaps some doubling up. Incidentally, how's your experience against Magnus2/Ossrum (that most iniquitous of Merc pairs)?
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Jul 6, 2018 17:15:25 GMT
Yes. Going first is very important for pointy ears in the current meta. My merc lists didn't have the same issue (mercs have merc issues), because they are as a faction more durable. For all the typical slowness of ARM skew lists, I fear that without someone like V2 (I actually quite like Rean Knopke's V2 Shadows list with 2 x trip Vyre lights), I can't seem to get my head around how the list handles the trading aspect. I mean, Spellpiercer is obviously a thing, but there's a lot of native high ARM which derives its roadblockiness from non-spell sources. Ret is universally bad at trading because we can't really take a beating. Most of our shooting is ineffective to pose a real attrition risk. We are all about making the perfect melee or magic attack that allows no meaningful retaliation. If you aren't trying to make an unfair trade (theft?), you aren't playing Retribution correctly. If I (emphasis on the 'I' bit, since I've never seen you play) run these lists, I'll alpha 100% going first or second in all likelihood, but it'll be a complete no-sell because of the lack of aggregate damage (even if I have greater scenario presence), leaving me shitting myself with the counter-attack. :/ You have to make it count. Luckily for us, Shyeel light jacks are one of the fastest jacks in the game and when buffed by arcanist, hit above their weight class. Not that many lists want to two take Assail, Concentrated power, 3 focus and Cleave buffed jacks to the face. For example, a charging Griffon makes three damage boosted p+s15 attacks (if anything dies to first two attacks). So is it a case of targets of opportunity or do you have a key jack to take down from the off? It depends on variety of factors, but it's usually the jack the MHSF is deployed against. Since I decide where the MHSF is deployed, the decision is usually done during AD deployment phase. Opponent can try hide the jack, but with AD, SPD6, phantom barrage and RNG12 it's usually fruitless. Either you surrender the flank or take a lot of backlash damage. Another thing to remember is that channelled Hexblast amps up any bling damage done by Backlash. This is one of the reasons why Goreshade4 is slightly better at killing enemy casters than Kaelyssa. So And vs Hordes (since we have been concentrating on the Warmachine side of the matchup)? Thyron list is played against every Hordes list. So I'm starting to get the impression the two of us have vastly different gameplay philosophies (nothing bad or anything, just that your lists still perplex me, somewhat), but could you clarify what you mean by 'take enough table space'? Certainly. If I go first (which I always do, if I win the starting roll), the lights threaten 25" (not counting sidestep, assail, fleet or chimera melee range) during 2A. Phoenix would only threaten 23" (not counting sidestep or assail). It may not sound much, but those inches are very important. If by being able to threaten whole swathes of the board, I find that most of my opponents, after judicious questioning of what my models can do won't really care what a Ret light (well, Shyeel light, anyway, the Vyre lights still bother a lot) can threaten in terms of space because of what they have available that can easily remove it as an issue... Many of my opponents have underestimated the damage potential and threat range of my light warjacks. If you have low ARM warlock or warcaster it's in mortal danger if it leaves the deployment zone until the feat has been used. With such a large battlegroup and only the one unit, can it create sufficient traffic jams to squeeze people out of scenario, especially since some of the lights will be sacrificed going into turn 3? Shyeel light warjacks are nearly as durable as Shyeel heavies and a lot faster. They are very good at creating traffic jams. Primal Terrors, usually some combination of Blightbringer, Golab, Chosen, Warspears, Warmongers, Hellmouths and perhaps some doubling up. Having played twice against PT Thagrosh1 list (and lost both times), it's an uphill battle. The root of the problem is that zero camping (E3 removes fury and upkeeps) Thagrosh1 with Rapid Healing and Dragon’s Breath aura is still difficult to kill with fully buffed Phoenix under feat. BB is also annoyingly difficult to remove when Thagrosh1 is hugging its butt. You can't even force Thagrosh to cut itself by removing the fury from BB with E3 or Nayl, because of Athanc. Thagrosh spells are mostly upkeeps so activation order rarely comes into play if Nayl blows up in Thagrosh1 face. BB also doesn’t mind if it can’t force itself during critical turn because Draconic aura works without forcing. Skorne Agonizer and Krielstone pose similar problems with caster assassination, but at least those models can be killed. Incidentally, how's your experience against Magnus2/Ossrum (that most iniquitous of Merc pairs)? Haven't played against these popular casters, but other merc and cygnar caster don't like it at all . Perhaps I'll get to see them in the coming tournament.
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Jul 9, 2018 20:51:21 GMT
germanicus Thanks to your feedback, I convinced my friend to try Ossrum Irregulars (EB, 7 gunners, 3 blasters, H&J, E1, Reinholt, Anastasia, Thor). We played two games on a table without center LoS block to maximise the oppressiveness of EB. I won the first game on scenario during 6A. The second game I lost like a newbie during 2A to EB assassination. It turns out flanking MHSF is very good against bunnyspam. Backlash didn’t effect the game, because my opponent cleverly killed Nayl from cover with snipe buffed E1. Arcane annihilation shut down both arc nodes .
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jul 10, 2018 3:50:42 GMT
germanicus Thanks to your feedback, I convinced my friend to try Ossrum Irregulars (EB, 7 gunners, 3 blasters, H&J, E1, Reinholt, Anastasia, Thor). We played two games on a table without center LoS block to maximise the oppressiveness of EB. I won the first game on scenario during 6A. The second game I lost like a newbie during 2A to EB assassination. It turns out flanking MHSF is very good against bunnyspam. Backlash didn’t effect the game, because my opponent cleverly killed Nayl from cover with snipe buffed E1. Arcane annihilation shut down both arc nodes . Man, I'm really curious as to how your games play out (as in turn by turn)... Out of curiosity, you wouldn't have any pics of the games available, would you?
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Jul 10, 2018 11:59:59 GMT
Wasn't there a batrep blog that went with this at one point? Or am I mixing my threads?
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jul 30, 2018 13:14:34 GMT
Out of interest, how do you feel now that Shadows is (likely) to lose the +1 to go first? But given you're concentration on BG, I guess ambushing non-CA MHI doesn't entice you...
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Post by elladan52 on Jul 30, 2018 15:09:41 GMT
Out of interest, how do you feel now that Shadows is (likely) to lose the +1 to go first? But given you're concentration on BG, I guess ambushing non-CA MHI doesn't entice you... I actually like it way more, because you can now bring the whole support boat of Lys Healer and Fane Knight Guardian in most themes, which makes Thyron more attractive across the board.
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Aug 1, 2018 12:19:15 GMT
Wasn't there a batrep blog that went with this at one point? Or am I mixing my threads? You are mixing threads : ). However, I have played over 10 tournament games with Thyron Shadows last month. I could create a new batrep thread (with pics ofc) if enough people are interested. Out of interest, how do you feel now that Shadows is (likely) to lose the +1 to go first? It’s a funny thing. I noticed that going 2nd is the preferred option against most opponents/scenarios. Only against extremely powerful ARM-buffing defense feats you want to go first. But given you're concentration on BG, I guess ambushing non-CA MHI doesn't entice you... I would have to drop some lights (read: reduce the overall list durability) to include the ambushing MHI unit. Hmm.. I will probably test them to at some point.
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Post by apoc2148 on Oct 4, 2018 15:38:15 GMT
Since the Ret CID is now live, has any of you opinions changed about Thyron in the different themes? With shadows now having all warrior models stopping enemies from making tough rolls against melee attacks it could be worth another look. I'm kinda tempted to try out this list:
Thyron Shadows: -Sylys -Banshee x2 -Moros Full MHSF + UA Spears + Souless Full Infiltrators Narn Eiryss2 Arcanist x3
Infiltrators can ambush if needed and on his feat turn they can chew their way to a decent position. Double banshee for assail hot swapping for double slams. Moros is my assassination piece, cause on feat turn if it can side-step to caster they are dead. Arcanist and sylys help with focus efficient and flag capturing. Spears, narn and E2 are there as threats to keep your opponent honest and help strip up keeps. I'm planning on tossing it down on a table soon to try out.
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Post by shadowsword751 on Oct 5, 2018 20:38:59 GMT
Since the Ret CID is now live, has any of you opinions changed about Thyron in the different themes? With shadows now having all warrior models stopping enemies from making tough rolls against melee attacks it could be worth another look. I'm kinda tempted to try out this list: Thyron Shadows: -Sylys -Banshee x2 -Moros Full MHSF + UA Spears + Souless Full Infiltrators Narn Eiryss2 Arcanist x3 Infiltrators can ambush if needed and on his feat turn they can chew their way to a decent position. Double banshee for assail hot swapping for double slams. Moros is my assassination piece, cause on feat turn if it can side-step to caster they are dead. Arcanist and sylys help with focus efficient and flag capturing. Spears, narn and E2 are there as threats to keep your opponent honest and help strip up keeps. I'm planning on tossing it down on a table soon to try out. Have you considered doing Nyss Hunters vice the MHSF? Faster, weapon master, and hunter on the ranged attacks might make them a interesting choice.
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Post by apoc2148 on Oct 8, 2018 11:08:45 GMT
Since the Ret CID is now live, has any of you opinions changed about Thyron in the different themes? With shadows now having all warrior models stopping enemies from making tough rolls against melee attacks it could be worth another look. I'm kinda tempted to try out this list: Thyron Shadows: -Sylys -Banshee x2 -Moros Full MHSF + UA Spears + Souless Full Infiltrators Narn Eiryss2 Arcanist x3 Infiltrators can ambush if needed and on his feat turn they can chew their way to a decent position. Double banshee for assail hot swapping for double slams. Moros is my assassination piece, cause on feat turn if it can side-step to caster they are dead. Arcanist and sylys help with focus efficient and flag capturing. Spears, narn and E2 are there as threats to keep your opponent honest and help strip up keeps. I'm planning on tossing it down on a table soon to try out. Have you considered doing Nyss Hunters vice the MHSF? Faster, weapon master, and hunter on the ranged attacks might make them a interesting choice. I have, and the only real reason for using the MSHF is points towards free models. As it stands the list sits at 44 points going towards free models. Which nets me a free narn and eiryss2.
I've been using the nyss hunters with minions lately and they have been performing well. I'm sure they will do even better with blessed/magical weapons from spellpiercer. May have to work up a list with them in it to try out.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Oct 11, 2018 13:17:37 GMT
I have, and the only real reason for using the MSHF is points towards free models. As it stands the list sits at 44 points going towards free models. Which nets me a free narn and eiryss2. I've been using the nyss hunters with minions lately and they have been performing well. I'm sure they will do even better with blessed/magical weapons from spellpiercer. May have to work up a list with them in it to try out. Bit late to this discussion, but Nyss Hunters contribute to points for free models in SotR as the stipulation is for Ret units, and Cylena & bros are Partisan, after all... also you're at 45 qualifying points, the Soulless Escort counts as well. Worth a try? Hunters + SE is the same cost as MHSF + CA, so the substitution works neatly...
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Post by apoc2148 on Oct 11, 2018 13:48:42 GMT
I have, and the only real reason for using the MSHF is points towards free models. As it stands the list sits at 44 points going towards free models. Which nets me a free narn and eiryss2. I've been using the nyss hunters with minions lately and they have been performing well. I'm sure they will do even better with blessed/magical weapons from spellpiercer. May have to work up a list with them in it to try out. Bit late to this discussion, but Nyss Hunters contribute to points for free models in SotR as the stipulation is for Ret units, and Cylena & bros are Partisan, after all... also you're at 45 qualifying points, the Soulless Escort counts as well. Worth a try? Hunters + SE is the same cost as MHSF + CA, so the substitution works neatly... Guess I missed that in the theme description! They are absolutely worth a shot in the list then. That opens up the list to take on more hordes list instead of excluding it to mainly wanting to drop against wm lists. Also hunter+spell piercer is a combination that will make a lot of models scared.
Guess I need to go re-read everything Ret related again. XD
Edit: Did some list-crafting and I've got a set up I might try. Full nyss hunters, min infiltrators (most likely ambushing) and Spears w/ 2 souless escorts is exactly 40 points.
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