tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Apr 6, 2018 17:34:20 GMT
Tanan, would you mind explaining the idea behind a Daemon over a Manticore and extra Arcanist? Long story short, Shyeel jacks are faster but have worse weapons system than their Vyre counterparts. Manticore gun blocks unit movement. Daemon gun kills units and warcasters. It also makes feat sidestep way better. But don't get me wrong, Manticore is a beast when it free charges from Assail. The problem is that there are usually better targets for Assail than Manticore. I'm considering swapping the last remaining manticore and soulless escort to Sphinx+arcanist or Hydra.
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bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
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Post by bluebeard on Jun 13, 2018 16:29:29 GMT
Just a bump. I was curious if the OP has tried Thyron in the dawnguard theme yet?
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Jun 14, 2018 6:39:07 GMT
I recently went 6/14 in a local tournament playing Thyron Shadows exclusively. Lost to 6 heavy King of Nothing and Vlad1 jackspam.
In case some is interested, the current all-rounder list is:
Retribution Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Shadows of the Retribution [Thyron 1] Thyron, Sword of Truth [+27] - Chimera [8] - Chimera [8] - Griffon [8] - Griffon [8] - Griffon [8] - Hydra [15] - Phoenix [18] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Nayl [0(3)] Mage Hunter Strike Force (max) [16] - Eiryss, Mage Hunter Commander [6] - Soulless Escort (1) [1]
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Post by elladan52 on Jun 14, 2018 12:34:33 GMT
Why the Chimeras?
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Post by elladan52 on Jun 14, 2018 12:36:13 GMT
Just a bump. I was curious if the OP has tried Thyron in the dawnguard theme yet? I am back in skorne for now, but I never did try him in legions. At the time I had an amazing Helynna list in Legions and he wasn't going to be as good as her. He has basically no good synergies with the dawnguard, the only interesting thing is having a super solo at the end of the game.
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Post by elladan52 on Jun 14, 2018 12:38:47 GMT
I also realize I have not posted my shadows reports, so I'll do that soon. I think I have some defenders reports on my computer as well.
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Jun 15, 2018 20:55:03 GMT
Chimera is an odd warjack. It's second fastest warjack in the faction (losing only to griffon fleet charge) and it outdamages all other warjacks, if you factor in the point cost. It also does this with minimal focus and arcanist support.
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Jun 17, 2018 8:27:20 GMT
The basic plan is:
1. Go first (+1 from theme) 2. Everyone except single arcanist and Thyron runs. Hydra is fully powered. 3. If you have done everything correctly, the Chimeras and Griffons threaten everything that has advanced 6" from deployment zone. You can sweeten the deal by using fleet and assail. Please note that these are limited resources and should be used with caution. 4. Depending on enemy engagement level, scenario, feat use and force composition, you can either go all in using a feat, attack with 3 concentrated power lights, 1 fully buffed Griffon, or back away if enemy uses a defensive feat. MHSF either jams or kills vulnerable models. Nayl runs to tie up heavies, if there is a missplay from enemy. 5. Hydra and Phoenix run to optimal position behind Griffons.
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Jun 22, 2018 8:44:07 GMT
Played a game yesterday against my friend Morghoul3 list with my Thyron Shadows. Man those lights are useful! Quick summary:
0A: Won the starting roll, went first 1A: Everyone runs 1B: Morghoul3 advances 9" and is in sidestep range of two warjacks with 2 fury. Bloodrunners tie up everything. 2A: Thyron feats. MHSF clears Bloodrunners and E3 makes a shot against Morghoul3, but saddly misses. Fully buffed and Assailed Griffon charges a Brute and gets into melee with Morghoul3. Saddly, the both Griffon initial attacks miss their target and the fully buffed chimera can't get into melee with Morghoul3. Nayl goes b2b with Morghoul3. 2B: Morghoul3 has 5 hitpoints. Morghoul3 blinds MHSF and retreats with zero fury. An attempt is made to kill Nayl, but it fails. 3A: Phoenix clears the way for Chimera #2. Griffon 2# kills Nayl to clear up landing space. Fully buffed and Assailed Chimera makes 11+2" pathfinder charge to Morghoul3, killing him.
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Jun 26, 2018 21:51:54 GMT
1. Yes thyrones feat grants a extra melee attack die. But you still have to kill a model to activate cleave. Cleave as a extra attack is limited to ONE so unlike beserk your at best getting 3 melee attacks including cleave before buying attacks. Cleave can also triggered by extra attack kill, but you are otherwise right. However, consider the following: - There isn't a warcaster with "Field Marshal: Berserk" in the game. Terminus and Butcher2 can give berserk to a warjack by casting a 2 focus spell. - There is only one warjak in the game with berserk and sidestep and that is Draco under Vlad3 feat. --> Cleave isn't Berserk but it's damn close (Field Marshal: pseudo-Berserk?). Having it on a every battlegroup warjack (that don't explode if they wander outside of control range) and is unique and powerful. 2. Side step is good but triggers off of initial attacks and melee spacial atacks only so it ill not trigger off of purchased or cleave attacks. Yes, but it easily gives affected warjacks 4" extra threat range. That's usually enough to kill everyone the jack can kill with the focus it's allocated. 3. Boundless charge is greater than assail hands down as on average you can target 3 jacks vs 2 with assail. Its a upkeep so on turn 2 assumming you hot swap assail you have spent 5 focus for two jacks to benifit vs boundless charges 4. They tie if you use sylis. And if you want jacks to benifit from his feat then only ONE jack can make use of it on feat turn. Now we are getting into interesting territory. What spells Thyron absolutely needs to cast during 1st turn and how many focus points does his army need? How many light and heavy warjacks does the optimal army list have? How do you plan to allocate focus and concentrate power during feat turn? My experieces is that Thyron is very good at running a pair of heavies. Not more, not less. The 1st heavy can be anything, but the second should probably be self powered like Hydra. Thyron has very few must cast 1st turn spells if I go first, which I probably do because I play him in SotR. If there is a alot of rought terrain, I cast Onslaught. If I absolutely need extra threat range for the lead Griffon, I cast Assail. I never can Storm rager, if I go first. This usually means that I can allocate 4 focus during my 1st turn. I usually allocates 3 to Griffons (for fleet) and 1 to Hydra. Two arcanists can run and one powers up the Hydra after it has run (fully allocated during second turn because of power up). The ideal feat turn for Thyron is either 5 focus allocations to lights, assail upkeep and 3 focus from arcanists (--> kill single wound infantry) or 5 focus allocations to heavies/lights assail upkeep and 3 concentrated power from arcanists (--> kill anything but single wound infantry). Or you can do super accurate sidestep charge throw trick with Hydra. Or you can throw a key model 4" with Chimera to get optimal sidestep lane to enemy caster that thought that he was safe when there wasn't a model within 8". It's a very flexible offensive feat.
So yah miss information is a strong argument. On a seriouse note he is ment to run a few powerful warjacks by design not a massive warjack force. I disagree. If anything, you get more mileage from Cleave the more you have light jacks. Also vyrose 1 will out run thyron every time and more effectively assumming same support. Vyros1 jacks run faster, but aren't faster in charges or get free charges like Thyron does. Vyros1 jacks hit harder on feat turn assuming that 3-cost mobility isn't needed. In other situations, Thyron jacks hit harder because of free charges and cleave. Vyros1 requires careful infantry positioning to get ideal feat turn, Thyron doesn't. Even with careful infantry positioning, Thyron jacks hit more accurately. Vyros1 feat is limited to control area, Thyron isn't. Thyron jacks are better at killing infantry and caster assassination, because of sidestep and cleave. Thyron jacks can always bypass powerful buff spells like Death Pact and Even Ground.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jun 27, 2018 5:26:53 GMT
There's a lot of horses for courses here, which I get. Quick question, what would you pair with this list, as it seems this is better into more combined arms/dude spam lists with non-reach enemy pieces you can Side-step past...? My worry is that someone will see this and drop their (what seems to be proliferating) medium based brick into it. This list will alpha it, definitely, but I do not think it'll be able to clear enough to get the cleave attacks/optimal Side-step moves without overcommitting with the heavies. Not sure how you feel about the list chicken chances it has... :/
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jun 27, 2018 5:33:32 GMT
Just a bump. I was curious if the OP has tried Thyron in the dawnguard theme yet? Huh, not sure how I missed this, two weeks old though it is... Yes, and it was OK... in fairness, I played a non-optimised list (Vics... Vics!!) with a marshal'd Hydra. Purely anecdotal, but it can work, just don't clump up the Sentinels on the run in or mini-feat relatively early since Thyron has no defensive tech. I lived the dream, Lanyssa tagged a heavy and the Assail'd Hydra piled in and one-rounded two heavies and put a dent in a third. Good times, good times.
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Jun 27, 2018 7:56:09 GMT
Quick question, what would you pair with this list, as it seems this is better into more combined arms/dude spam lists with non-reach enemy pieces you can Side-step past...? Enemy reach is an issue only with bad touch melee attacks like derp turtle tail. Retribution lights can usually take a free strike without any risk because of power field. I'm actually more worried about 8-9 economy heavy lists (Khador, Mercs, Cryx), because Retribution jacks don't trade up very well (because of max 3 arcanists). For this reason, the 2nd list must have Backlash (Kaelyssa or Goreshade) and some disruption (E1 or E2). My worry is that someone will see this and drop their (what seems to be proliferating) medium based brick into it. This list will alpha it, definitely, but I do not think it'll be able to clear enough to get the cleave attacks/optimal Side-step moves without overcommitting with the heavies. Not sure how you feel about the list chicken chances it has... :/ Medium bricks can be tough nut to crack. On the other hand, the Thyron list will very likely go first and medium based lists hate that because they are somewhat slow. Opponent also has to be careful to avoid free (read: no retaliation possible) heavy charges, free Thyron charges, enabling sidestep casterkills and being relevant in the scenario. [/quote]
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jun 27, 2018 8:57:05 GMT
Enemy reach is an issue only with bad touch melee attacks like derp turtle tail. Retribution lights can usually take a free strike without any risk because of power field. I'm actually more worried about 8-9 economy heavy lists (Khador, Mercs, Cryx), because Retribution jacks don't trade up very well (because of max 3 arcanists). For this reason, the 2nd list must have Backlash (Kaelyssa or Goreshade) and some disruption (E1 or E2). You'd risk a free strike from a heavy? Even with Force Fields, an unlucky roll will take out a system i.e. the primary melee weapon. Against lights and other targets, that's fine (with exceptions as noted)... so does it just come down to eating a free strike based on it being a calculated risk? So what would your off list be? I have a dislike of Backlash for a number of reasons (reliability of dealing genuinely loads of plink damage which no-one can outside of Iron Mother in Destruction Initiative, how little effect it has on Gaspy3 Slayer spam, how much risk it poses to the caster in question, especially Kae since she needs to be within 8" as she has no other spells worth casting via an arc node etc.) and though it can apply some pressure, most of my opponents have learned to weather it due to how unreliable the damage a Ret sourced Backlash can actually do (simply checking for assassination threats more). With Disrupt, it's a purely targeted tactic with Ret, so it doesn't quite work against jack spam in my experience. Anyway, you mentioned Grymkin being your other loss, would you play Thyron/jacks/Shadows again into it or something else (obviously a Backlash/Disrupt plan wouldn't work, but then it is a different problem altogether)? My point is that since you will get the alpha, they'll eat it gladly because they've got the armour stack and boxes to be able to absorb whatever Thyron can throw (himself notwithstanding because committing him with the first charge is dumb). Committing the Phoenix and/or the Hydra on feat turn to smash them up won't do enough, I don't think, against the brick and they, for the most part, won't care for MHSF and just mosey past or into them as 7-8 to hit is a better prospect than box cars to do scraping damage even with CMA's. Granted, I find myself incapable of finding a solid answer because I'm an utterly incompetent theorist and player so you'd likely wipe the floor with me, but with the ARM cracking in the list concentrated in 3 models (including your caster), don't you find they can be easily taken care of piecemeal? Follow up: how do you deal with PT? 'cos I sure as hell don't know!
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Post by squighopper on Jun 27, 2018 10:10:10 GMT
edit: just noticed I replied to a post from April... I really don't see it happening. The biggest problem is Thyron doesn't have a threat extender... Lanyssa can be unreliable (you're counting on hitting with a MA 7). Assail being an upkeep is skornegistic with his feat if you need to hot swap it). The second problem is the lack of a damage buff. Ok, you can "buff" 2 jacks (out of the 5 you have) with the arcanists (that's not really a buff, they just hit like a lot of unbuffed jacks of other factions) but that's not enough for a consistent alpha. The third is... how do you feed all those jacks? Using the arcanists to conc power leaves his 6 foc to do it. You don't have shield guards, no artificier, no lyss healer, so... allocate what, 4? Upkeep storm rager and camp 1? That's gonna be tight to survive... Using shadows theme with Thyron is a little puzzling... I would think his biggest strength is spellpiercer. But then you're using the daemon and mage hunters... Why is that?
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