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Post by greytemplar on Mar 10, 2017 18:58:56 GMT
Dropping the SnM down to 14 would be cool, but I think it should maybe also lose a point of defence as well. Not 100% on that, but 13/19 is ridiculous if you put Star Crossed on it.
I'd honestly be ok with the SnM staying at 15 if the Rager gets nerfed. The SnM is a little boring, but it delivers on what its supposed to be. The issue is the Rager is overshadowing it while also providing a ton of useful support.
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Post by Cryptix on Mar 11, 2017 0:08:32 GMT
I think dropping it to P+S q6 and make it only do one thing with a corpse per turn might make it worth 14.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Mar 11, 2017 1:15:46 GMT
The kind of annoying thing about the army as a whole in regards to testing is that so much of it is good under certain conditions and with the Arcana system there are SOOOOO many variables that aren't super hard to trigger.
Like a guy on the CID forums said that Piggybacks can't kill heavies, but The Heretic can give the a +5 to their damage roll on a heavy easily putting them to P&S 18 with little difficulty AND they get Vengence if they get hurt, which is likely.
Now that I think of it they can get sort of two turns at heavy killing if they take the Fortune's Path arcana and get to spend a second turn at P&S 17.
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Post by gunmageintraining on Mar 11, 2017 3:11:45 GMT
I've been looking over their stuff... and... they got some good stuff. Cheap weaponmasters, eyeless sight guns, corpse mechanics and some fun ways to use it and more. Their warlocks are all over the place, but I can see some being quite potent, but it's going to take quite a bit more think to really identify their strengths.
Their Arcanas though... Remember how they killed the -2 speed on Haley's feat? They gave it to all of them, oh, and they also gave control area rebuke. Arcana's seem to be either parallel to various feats, or at least half a feat, and you can have up to 3 of them a game... Timed right? They will devastate.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Mar 11, 2017 3:58:59 GMT
I've been looking over their stuff... and... they got some good stuff. Cheap weaponmasters, eyeless sight guns, corpse mechanics and some fun ways to use it and more. Their warlocks are all over the place, but I can see some being quite potent, but it's going to take quite a bit more think to really identify their strengths. Their Arcanas though... Remember how they killed the -2 speed on Haley's feat? They gave it to all of them, oh, and they also gave control area rebuke. Arcana's seem to be either parallel to various feats, or at least half a feat, and you can have up to 3 of them a game... Timed right? They will devastate. You get to choose two lesser Arcana and each warlock has a trump. You can play one arcana a round. The devs said they were looking to make each Arcana equal to about half a feat, funnily enough.
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Post by sideshowlucifer on Mar 11, 2017 4:31:08 GMT
PP seems very resistant to change on a lot of models, and I'm thinking the heavies are two such models.
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Post by gunmageintraining on Mar 11, 2017 4:34:47 GMT
I've been looking over their stuff... and... they got some good stuff. Cheap weaponmasters, eyeless sight guns, corpse mechanics and some fun ways to use it and more. Their warlocks are all over the place, but I can see some being quite potent, but it's going to take quite a bit more think to really identify their strengths. Their Arcanas though... Remember how they killed the -2 speed on Haley's feat? They gave it to all of them, oh, and they also gave control area rebuke. Arcana's seem to be either parallel to various feats, or at least half a feat, and you can have up to 3 of them a game... Timed right? They will devastate. You get to choose two lesser Arcana and each warlock has a trump. You can play one arcana a round. The devs said they were looking to make each Arcana equal to about half a feat, funnily enough. Right, half a feat... and it's a mix-match not just for the list/army but for the opponent (because it seems you choose your arcana before the game not when list building). Lock your opponents out of charge, or slow them up than get the charge yourself... light em all on fire than whatever. I didn't look so much at the trump arcana as those are locked to the warlock of course, but the general arcana are pretty powerful in their own right and from what I saw, none of the activation requirements were that excessive.
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Post by Swampmist on Mar 11, 2017 5:15:06 GMT
I think you are giving the speed debuff Arcana (The Labrynth) a tiny bit too much credit.nIt pops off of something ending activation in command, then slows things starting in control. That means that either way one thing is charging minimum, and will do little against faster armies that can charge your frontline from outside of the bubble.
On another note for the arcana, I have some oversized Tarot cards from a game I picked up a few years ago, XI (strength) through XXI (The World.) As such, I have exactly enough cards to assign each of the Lesser arcana it's own card, Using The World for all of the Trump Arcana. This is my rough list for connecting each arcana to a card: XI - Strength <-> Sacrifice XII - The Hanged Man <-> Labyrinth XIII - Death <-> Ill Omens XIV - Temperance <-> Injury XV - The Devil <-> The Shadow XVI - The Tower <-> Ruin XVII - The Star <-> Fortune's Path XVIII - The Moon <-> Shroud XIX - The Sun <-> Tantrum XX - Judgment <-> Pandemonium XXI - The World <-> The Trump Card
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Mar 11, 2017 9:04:01 GMT
You get to choose two lesser Arcana and each warlock has a trump. You can play one arcana a round. The devs said they were looking to make each Arcana equal to about half a feat, funnily enough. Right, half a feat... and it's a mix-match not just for the list/army but for the opponent (because it seems you choose your arcana before the game not when list building). Lock your opponents out of charge, or slow them up than get the charge yourself... light em all on fire than whatever. I didn't look so much at the trump arcana as those are locked to the warlock of course, but the general arcana are pretty powerful in their own right and from what I saw, none of the activation requirements were that excessive. People have suggested that getting to choose Arcana after finding out your opponents army is a bit strong. Remember this is all still being tested. Dread Rots have already completly changed how they work once and its not even time for the first update. Also the Arcana haven't been a focus of feedback yet, they've been focussing on warlock and warbeasts this week.
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Post by Forsaken on Mar 11, 2017 15:51:08 GMT
Did my first testrun last night (as the opponent) and I was quite impressed with the piggybacks. At least as survivable as I was expecting while being surprisingly good at damage output.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Mar 11, 2017 17:36:38 GMT
Did my first testrun last night (as the opponent) and I was quite impressed with the piggybacks. At least as survivable as I was expecting while being surprisingly good at damage output. I was actually really surprised at how well balanced they were. On paper their rules seem insane but on the table they aren't half as bad as they seem.
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 11, 2017 18:09:51 GMT
Right, half a feat... and it's a mix-match not just for the list/army but for the opponent (because it seems you choose your arcana before the game not when list building). Lock your opponents out of charge, or slow them up than get the charge yourself... light em all on fire than whatever. I didn't look so much at the trump arcana as those are locked to the warlock of course, but the general arcana are pretty powerful in their own right and from what I saw, none of the activation requirements were that excessive. People have suggested that getting to choose Arcana after finding out your opponents army is a bit strong. Remember this is all still being tested. Dread Rots have already completly changed how they work once and its not even time for the first update. Also the Arcana haven't been a focus of feedback yet, they've been focussing on warlock and warbeasts this week. Yeah, I think it might be too strong. Especially with some of the Arcana being as stupid as they are. the Arcana are a bit all over the map in terms of power. Some are quite lame, some are about right, and others are just feat levels of power(which is too high). I think the biggest problem with most of the Arcana is the unlimited ranges once they are triggered. Unlimited range is just not OK IMO.
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Post by Swampmist on Mar 11, 2017 18:22:27 GMT
Unlimited range? Many of them are control or even cmd only, outside of The Heretic's trump and maybe Sac?
Oh, and King of Nothing's trump, but that basically translates to "d3 damage per dead crabbit."
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Post by Cryptix on Mar 11, 2017 20:35:14 GMT
Sacrifice is utterly broken on certain warnouns, and Torment shouldn't affect the Warlock.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Mar 11, 2017 20:37:17 GMT
Pagini confirmed that Tantrum effects the warlocks fury as well. So that's pretty funny.
On the topic of Arcana I feel like theres a lot to knowing which ones to trigger and when. When I played I felt like I was using them pretty well.
People keep comparing this faction to Malifaux and with the reactive nature of Arcana I do really feel like knowing Malifaux has set me up well for when to use the Arcana.
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