germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Feb 5, 2018 21:22:44 GMT
It's what it says on the tin...
With themes approaching point of being the be all and end all of general gameplay, is there any chance that we can have a half-decent out of theme list at all? What combinations would tempt going out of theme?
Thoughts were aired for Rahn being semi-playable out of theme, but that seems to have died away as far as I can tell...
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Feb 5, 2018 21:33:49 GMT
War Room Army
Retribution of Scyrah - All the kings horses
Theme: No Theme Selected 75 / 75 Army
Magister Helynna - WJ: +30 - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker - PC: 4 - Discordia - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Hemera - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12) - Hypnos - PC: 18 - Imperatus - PC: 22
Arcantrik Force Generator - PC: 17
Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2 Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2 Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2 Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress - PC: 4
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GENERATED : 02/05/2018 16:31:59 BUILD ID : 2059.17-12-30
This list is really fun to play, is pretty strong on attrition but it's lack of free solos to score/help contest makes it hard to win on scenarios with a lot of zones and flags.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Feb 6, 2018 14:04:56 GMT
Because I have a fixation with high quality shooting, irrespective of the cost...!
Rahn with AFG and a jack marshal'd Harpy/Hydra... ¬_¬
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on Feb 11, 2018 16:45:36 GMT
My opinion is that themeless lists still have a place in the meta. RoS has several models that are better than other equally-priced models. Unsurprisingly, all these supermodels aren't available in the same theme. If you are building a themeless list (or a theme list for that matter) you should definitely consider these models: - All character jacks ( isotope takes it to a new level. Personally, I would drop Sylys and Lanyssa and take a unit of Arcanists) - Elara1 - House Shyeel Artificer - House Shyeel Arcanists unit - AFG - MHSF + E3 - Invictors + UA
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bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
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Post by bluebeard on Feb 26, 2018 7:04:52 GMT
I believe right now it's a question of; can your list play 15-20 points down and still win? To me, themes go against the grain of the RoS faction identity. So with that in mind,you may be on to something.
I would love to see a new theme come out that points us back in the original faction direction, but until then you will have to play very crafty.
Maybe that's the mistake some of us have made while list creating. Should we design lists based on the conventional standards of theme-machine? Or do we play the unexpected and prove our faction is truly better when not segregated?
With this in mind I wonder how many of us pointy eared psychos can come up with some wonderful and deadly synergies the other factions won't expect...time to delve into war room and get crazy
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Feb 26, 2018 9:13:52 GMT
I believe right now it's a question of; can your list play 15-20 points down and still win? To me, themes go against the grain of the RoS faction identity. So with that in mind,you may be on to something. I would love to see a new theme come out that points us back in the original faction direction, but until then you will have to play very crafty. I think our faction is clearly balanced around non theme play. In the current state of the game where themes are almost mandatory to be competitive our CID will have to either address the value of our units ( possibly lowering point costs or raising output/survivability/productivity) OR the weaknesses of our themes ( either lowering threshold for free models and/or making other benefits more substantial). With the current themes and the cost/output of our units it's hard to justify going in theme when the benefits are so low. My Vyros1 Shadows list gets +1 to go first, takedown and 1 free model. That doesn't feel that great when I'm going up against someone with 4 free models and advance move on 4 heavies, or 4 free models and +2 Speed on warbeasts.
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bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
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Post by bluebeard on Feb 27, 2018 7:54:56 GMT
Ok, so I've started a synergy log for our casters based on a combined, non-themed list. The first caster that came to mind when running this was Ossyan. So here are some benefits to running certain models/units out of theme. I'm sure there are some I missed, but this is just with stuff I have. Character Jacks and Ossyan - Discordia:imprint kinetic field(arm +2) • Future sight(FS) on SP10 POW14 • Shatterstorm on spray for blasts vs dudespam • Fortune on SP10 for assassination potential increase. • Feat for increased damage *Feat + Fortune + FS= amazing... - Imperatus • Quicken = SPD8 DEF15 vs ranged • Arcantrik Bolt + FS = scrap pile Units - SF Archers/Invictors • Both innate snipe + feat (SF=16 Inv=16) • Fortune + SF Brutals + Inv CRA + feat = Wow. Arcantrik bolt first to knock down • Both units same speed and won't outpace one another. Invictors can shield the archers. And get bonus arm from Disco - Battle Mages • Force bolt + SF Brutals if crit knockdown • Force Bolt to move key piece closer to Imperatus. Arcantrik bolt from Ossyan for stationary, then Impy kills. • Force bolts + feat = POW10 with 3 dice. Not too shabby. This is all I've had time to type up here, but like many of us have said; our faction shines when we are not limited. If anyone else would like to add their thoughts, please do
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bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
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Post by bluebeard on Feb 27, 2018 8:17:22 GMT
Here is a list that could be fun.
War Room Army
Retribution of Scyrah - Ossyan no theme
Theme: No Theme Selected 75 / 75 Army
Lord Arcanist Ossyan - WJ: +28 - Discordia - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Imperatus - PC: 22 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10)
Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2 Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2 Ghost Sniper - PC: 3 Ghost Sniper - PC: 3
Dawnguard Invictors - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Dawnguard Invictor Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 4 - Soulless Escort - PC: 1 Stormfall Archers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 9 Stormfall Archers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 9 House Shyeel Battle Mages - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10 Heavy Rifle Team - Leader & Grunt: 4
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Feb 27, 2018 11:17:40 GMT
Only problem I see with the list is a lack of hit fixer for the SFA. They really need something to slam or knockdown or shadow bind their target to ensure you're not missing. Taking a def12 heavy down to DEF 5 knocked down or DEF 9 with shadow bind ( from hypnos gun) really helps them out.
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bluebeard
Junior Strategist
crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women
Posts: 293
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Post by bluebeard on Feb 28, 2018 5:37:29 GMT
Yes I see what you mean Isotope. To solve that issue, drop Imperatus for Hypnos. I just dont own the model, so thats why I didn't include it. Also I could put in a Banshee for some k/d, since I don't own Hypnos. If you expect some hordes action you could always try out Moros instead of the snipers, rifle team and the soulless. Here is an updated list:
War Room Army
Retribution of Scyrah - Ossyan
Theme: No Theme Selected 75 / 75 Army
Lord Arcanist Ossyan - WJ: +28 - Discordia - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Banshee - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Moros - PC: 11
Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2 Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2 Mage Hunter Assassin - PC: 4
Dawnguard Invictors - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Dawnguard Invictor Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 4 Stormfall Archers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 9 Stormfall Archers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 9 House Shyeel Battle Mages - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
I had 4 points floating, so I used them for an assassin. You could always throw in another solo to taste, depends on what you are expecting.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Feb 28, 2018 13:53:30 GMT
I was thinking of trying one of these next time I play
War Room Army
Retribution of Scyrah - guns
Theme: No Theme Selected 75 / 75 Army
Lord Arcanist Ossyan - WJ: +28 - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker - PC: 4 - Harpy - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Harpy - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Hypnos - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10) - Moros - PC: 11 - Siren - PC: 8 - Siren - PC: 8
Arcantrik Force Generator - PC: 17
Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2 Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2 Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2 Eiryss, Angel of Retribution - PC: 6
House Shyeel Arcanists - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7
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GENERATED : 02/28/2018 08:51:59 BUILD ID : 2061.18-02-21
War Room Army
Retribution of Scyrah - All I Really Want is Guns
Theme: No Theme Selected 74 / 75 Army
Lord Arcanist Ossyan - WJ: +28 - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker - PC: 4 - Banshee - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Harpy - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9) - Harpy - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 1) - Hypnos - PC: 18 - Siren - PC: 8 - Siren - PC: 8
Arcantrik Force Generator - PC: 17
Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2 Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2
House Shyeel Arcanists - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7
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GENERATED : 02/28/2018 08:52:41 BUILD ID : 2061.18-02-21
I'm pretty done with Ret theme forces and since I don't play tournaments I'm just going to take the hit and make lists I actually like. Not as if I win often anyway lol
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dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on Mar 3, 2018 13:38:59 GMT
In mk2, we had several combinations which became semi-mandatory but cannot be taken in current themes. Examples: 1) Garryth and all the super Solos and threat extenders. 2) Discordia with Mage Hunters to avoid blast damage. 3) Mage Hunter Assassins in almost every list.
I'm sure there are more examples.
I admit that I have joined the theme boat. It is not because I think we have to but more a matter of trying them thoroughly before I decide (my current rate of gaming leaves something to be desired in this regard).
I played Ghyrrshyld with Hemera for a while and enjoyed the combination so I guess I would start with a long hard look at character 'jacks - possibly with a couple of Mage Hunter Assassins - if I were to design a non-theme list.
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Post by elladan52 on Mar 3, 2018 16:06:54 GMT
I think there is room for non-theme lists, but I think they will be somewhat limited. Certain casters don't do much for one archetype, but excel in a varied environment. So jot all casters will want to be out of themes, but I think a few will do pretty well.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Mar 3, 2018 18:41:57 GMT
In mk2, we had several combinations which became semi-mandatory but cannot be taken in current themes. Examples: 1) Garryth and all the super Solos and threat extenders. 2) Discordia with Mage Hunters to avoid blast damage. 3) Mage Hunter Assassins in almost every list. Strangely enough... I never did any of that! My go to now-theme-defunct combinations were: 1) Fires From on High (Stormfalls with Rahn & Mitten Corps) 2) Sentinels/Nyss Hunters/Assassins (expensive block, but it worked for me in an Issy list, somehow!) 3) Rahn/Sentinels/Mittens (unchargeable Sentinels were sweet and one of the best unit centred assassination modules I played) 4) Halbs/Vics (the infantry core of my end of MkII Kae default list that lost all of twice in a year, the Halbs/MHSF variant wasn't too shabby either) I think there is room for non-theme lists, but I think they will be somewhat limited. Certain casters don't do much for one archetype, but excel in a varied environment. So jot all casters will want to be out of themes, but I think a few will do pretty well. Such as?
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Post by elladan52 on Mar 3, 2018 22:11:43 GMT
In mk2, we had several combinations which became semi-mandatory but cannot be taken in current themes. Examples: 1) Garryth and all the super Solos and threat extenders. 2) Discordia with Mage Hunters to avoid blast damage. 3) Mage Hunter Assassins in almost every list. Strangely enough... I never did any of that! My go to now-theme-defunct combinations were: 1) Fires From on High (Stormfalls with Rahn & Mitten Corps) 2) Sentinels/Nyss Hunters/Assassins (expensive block, but it worked for me in an Issy list, somehow!) 3) Rahn/Sentinels/Mittens (unchargeable Sentinels were sweet and one of the best unit centred assassination modules I played) 4) Halbs/Vics (the infantry core of my end of MkII Kae default list that lost all of twice in a year, the Halbs/MHSF variant wasn't too shabby either) I think there is room for non-theme lists, but I think they will be somewhat limited. Certain casters don't do much for one archetype, but excel in a varied environment. So jot all casters will want to be out of themes, but I think a few will do pretty well. Such as? Rahn for sure, I think he does best with a variety of activations and options that themes don't give him. Things like assassins paired with battlemages and sentinels. He thrives with all the options he can bring. Thyron is similar, I think. I'm still working through lists, but he strikes me as one that will be stronger out rather than in. Garryth could be one, too. I think the running theme is warcasters with limited support for their army tend to do better with more varied forces. None of them have synergy with any particular theme beyond a couple things, but they do benefit from a deep toolbox. As an example, Rahn obviously synergizes with battlemages, but he definitely doesn't want to only have heavies to kill the things he drags in. Unchargeable sentinels are extremely good cleaners, bit without battlemages it's not easy to pull things in for them to kill. I'm not sure about other warcasters, I think most other ones have enough defined support for their army that you can put them into themes and not feel like you are missing out.
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