germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jan 31, 2018 20:38:19 GMT
I put fortune on the AFG, RAT 9 aiming with re-rolls hits most things. Use the slam gun shot to knockdown a jack then shoot all the archers into the jack that's on the ground. DEF 5 is easy to hit with RAT 5. Wouldn't you consider that a bit of a waste of the re-roll capability, given it'll be two shots at RAT 9 against DEF 10-14 basic for the most part. For even the high DEF heavies, they'd need concealment/cover to feel safe if they are going to lurk in LoS. That being the case, Hypnos can do his thing to kick things off, then KD and proceed to finish off. I'd rather have Fortune on a large unit where it can impact a high number of rolls (i.e. Cylena & Hunters or HGR clearing skirmishers). Addendum being that this is all in a vacuum and it is really board/terrain and list sensitive, but at a basic level, going into turn 2 pre-feat, I'd expect Quicken(/Fortune) on Nyss Hunters (should I take the Priest, you think?), Fortune(/Shatterstorm) on the HGR, Admo on Hypnos/Ossyan... :/ To me, without looking at opposing lists, in the event I take SFA's for the 4d6 Brutal facilitated by AFG's Momentum, the cricket isn't a priority for the Fortune spell, especially considering that only one list element (in all likelihood) will take advantage of it on feat turn.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jan 31, 2018 20:40:27 GMT
Yeah I can definitely see the appeal of the Nyss hunters into a higher defense list. And House guard rifle man are pretty wack especially if you can get off *whites of their eyes* on feat turn. A little more dependant on positioning but still pretty nice. I think it really comes down to what you're dropping your list into. Against a low defense army I can clear an objective pretty decently. High defense I'm sure I'd be pulling my hair out. I made the mistake of dropping Ossyan into Baldur1 in the blodweaver theme one time... Top of two my brain was like " why did you drop this!" turns out that stealth, blast immune infantry and DEF 18 no knockdown beasts are not a good matchup for Ossyan lol.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jan 31, 2018 20:44:01 GMT
I put fortune on the AFG, RAT 9 aiming with re-rolls hits most things. Use the slam gun shot to knockdown a jack then shoot all the archers into the jack that's on the ground. DEF 5 is easy to hit with RAT 5. Wouldn't you consider that a bit of a waste of the re-roll capability, given it'll be two shots at RAT 9 against DEF 10-14 basic for the most part. For even the high DEF heavies, they'd need concealment/cover to feel safe if they are going to lurk in LoS. That being the case, Hypnos can do his thing to kick things off, then KD and proceed to finish off. I'd rather have Fortune on a large unit where it can impact a high number of rolls (i.e. Cylena & Hunters or HGR clearing skirmishers). Addendum being that this is all in a vacuum and it is really board/terrain and list sensitive, but at a basic level, going into turn 2 pre-feat, I'd expect Quicken(/Fortune) on Nyss Hunters (should I take the Priest, you think?), Fortune(/Shatterstorm) on the HGR, Admo on Hypnos/Ossyan... :/ To me, without looking at opposing lists, in the event I take SFA's for the 4d6 Brutal facilitated by AFG's Momentum, the cricket isn't a priority for the Fortune spell, especially considering that only one list element (in all likelihood) will take advantage of it on feat turn. No, cause you really doon't wanna miss. Used it to knockdown a deathjack standing behind a house and then archers one rounded him ( with feat up), without rerolls hitting DEF 17 is risky. I typically put it on him turn 1 and run it, then upkeep it through feat turn and then let it drop. Obviously I don't do it every game, it's great on Eiryss1 if you're gonna go for the assassination also.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jan 31, 2018 20:54:03 GMT
What sucks even more is that you know SFA are RAT 5 BECAUSE ossyan had deadeye. When they took it away they should have also bumped them up to . Looking at other small units with ranged attacks like gun mages and seeing RAT7, speed 6( and other awesome rules) makes me sad. I'd love to see archers either get a solo or a UA to get them on par with gun mages etc. Y'know what nags at me...? The Satyxis Gunslingers... RAT 7, a character solo coming soon and usually debuffs out the wazoo... but I'm not bitter, I've got a unit and they're gorgeous...!! Functionally, in the context of Deadeye, I don't think SFA's RAT 5 had anything to do with it, since the E-mancers could have made mincemeat out of a lot, and the most common Deadeye target was the MHSF, both of which have RAT 6. SFA being RAT 6 should never have been a real problem, IMO... 'cos we're paying quite a premium for their shot choice, and however powerful they are, only one can be used at a time (unless Ravyn gives them Snipe) and (I believe) the unit is small enough to merit solid stats for their cost. Anyway, I'm with you there, because every time I've looked at them (once took them for a Kae Defenders list Repo for near constant aiming, but it never works that way, naturally!), it's a struggle to justify their points for inclusion. After Halbs plus a HRT's, it was a choice of two from: Cylena; AFG; 2 x SFA... and it's a pity that the choice has consistently been too easy to make. In terms of new things, I was a bit peeved to recall that we haven't gotten a new non-caster Dawnguard model release since Ret were first released. Relevant to this discussion, though, I'd be happy to see a generic buffing solo that can be taken in Defenders that can give a small buff to any unit just so it doesn't seem pigeonholed. Otherwise (that is, unit/house specific buff-bot), say for the SFA example, you're locked into a 22pt package (most likely)... 2 x SFA and the solo (assuming 4pts because so far so standard). Taking just the one unit would make the investment of the 4pt solo stretch its utility a bit too much.
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Jan 31, 2018 20:59:28 GMT
No, cause you really doon't wanna miss. Used it to knockdown a deathjack standing behind a house and then archers one rounded him ( with feat up), without rerolls hitting DEF 17 is risky. I typically put it on him turn 1 and run it, then upkeep it through feat turn and then let it drop. Obviously I don't do it every game, it's great on Eiryss1 if you're gonna go for the assassination also. Fair enough... like I say, this is (from my side, that is) mostly discussion of the list and gameplay out of context, so, here, where the opportunity to take down a high priority target like DJ presents itself (or when AFG needs to nail two 6+'s say to KD two feat targets, for the sake of example), it is definitely worth it. Oh yeah, meant to ask... I know you've mentioned them, but how do the Swordsmen do (feat/mini-feat and Quicken seems pretty legit)?
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Post by forthehorde on Jan 31, 2018 21:39:39 GMT
Yeah I can definitely see the appeal of the Nyss hunters into a higher defense list. And House guard rifle man are pretty wack especially if you can get off *whites of their eyes* on feat turn. A little more dependant on positioning but still pretty nice. I think it really comes down to what you're dropping your list into. Against a low defense army I can clear an objective pretty decently. High defense I'm sure I'd be pulling my hair out. I made the mistake of dropping Ossyan into Baldur1 in the blodweaver theme one time... Top of two my brain was like " why did you drop this!" turns out that stealth, blast immune infantry and DEF 18 no knockdown beasts are not a good matchup for Ossyan lol. Lol. Yeah anything in circles meta right now would be bad for ossyan. Kaya with fog, kruegar/una with wind wall and stealth griffons. And baldur with his forests and no knockdown shenanigans. I think the sfas to see steady action the new model would need to be unit specific. Otherwise people will just toss it on nyss hunters and riflemen for even more accurate shots. I do also agree that for the cost there's no reason they shouldn't be rat 6. It dances that line of hitting def 14 fairly often and would make fortune worth it. Swordsman I'd like to hear about as well. I'd imagine hsh would outclass them in theme significantly due to their squishiness. I've been thinking about trying them out in defenders with Vyros for infantry that can keep up with his battlegroup and IR to make them more durable. They pretty well deliver themselves on feat turn. But that's diverting from the ossyan thread.
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Post by CaptCommy on Jan 31, 2018 22:48:59 GMT
What sucks even more is that you know SFA are RAT 5 BECAUSE ossyan had deadeye. When they took it away they should have also bumped them up to . Looking at other small units with ranged attacks like gun mages and seeing RAT7, speed 6( and other awesome rules) makes me sad. I'd love to see archers either get a solo or a UA to get them on par with gun mages etc. SFA have been RAT 5 since their release, which was years and years before Ossyan ever had deadeye, and have been totally playable the entire time. I'd be fine if they get some new form of accuracy boost, but this logic is a little silly.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Feb 1, 2018 1:48:24 GMT
What sucks even more is that you know SFA are RAT 5 BECAUSE ossyan had deadeye. When they took it away they should have also bumped them up to . Looking at other small units with ranged attacks like gun mages and seeing RAT7, speed 6( and other awesome rules) makes me sad. I'd love to see archers either get a solo or a UA to get them on par with gun mages etc. SFA have been RAT 5 since their release, which was years and years before Ossyan ever had deadeye, and have been totally playable the entire time. I'd be fine if they get some new form of accuracy boost, but this logic is a little silly. When things got tweaks in MK3 they were evaluated based on Ossyan having deadeye, that is what i meant.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Feb 1, 2018 2:03:30 GMT
I made the mistake of dropping Ossyan into Baldur1 in the blodweaver theme one time... Top of two my brain was like " why did you drop this!" turns out that stealth, blast immune infantry and DEF 18 no knockdown beasts are not a good matchup for Ossyan lol. Lol. Yeah anything in circles meta right now would be bad for ossyan. Kaya with fog, kruegar/una with wind wall and stealth griffons. And baldur with his forests and no knockdown shenanigans. I think the sfas to see steady action the new model would need to be unit specific. Otherwise people will just toss it on nyss hunters and riflemen for even more accurate shots. I do also agree that for the cost there's no reason they shouldn't be rat 6. It dances that line of hitting def 14 fairly often and would make fortune worth it. Swordsman I'd like to hear about as well. I'd imagine hsh would outclass them in theme significantly due to their squishiness. I've been thinking about trying them out in defenders with Vyros for infantry that can keep up with his battlegroup and IR to make them more durable. They pretty well deliver themselves on feat turn. But that's diverting from the ossyan thread. As far as swordsmen go: With quicken they're Speed8, DEF 17 ( to guns) models with 2" RNG with a minifeat that lets the punch first. The way I like to operate it ( especially when going first) is too put quicken on them and run( going first that's putting them at the 23" line) then turn 2 minifeat and run them to 2.01" away from you enemies stuff spaced out enough to where they can't walk in between them without taking a free strike. At DEF17 to guns, attacking enemies that end movement within 2" of them they screen the enemy off putting pressure on them for scenario and really you either need high RAT boostable guns or multi-wound models/jacks/beasts to kill them because anything else will die going into them. Everything else in your army can either run or shoot ( long range stuff like AFG, SFA using snipe) to be ready to feat on turn 3. After turn 2 you can typically drop Quicken on whatever is still alive unless you have something in range of their 8" walk, 2"RNG threat in your enemies backline. Since with parry you can just walk away from whatever was send in to them and punch the enemy support in the back lines. This also frees up their front line from being engaged so that all of your guns are in range to aim and shoot. In games where don't need to use them to screen ( against an enemy who is slower, etc) they're great at clearing out infantry as MAT 7 with cleave, parry, minifeat while also having a 13" charge threat. I think they could use a little something to further differentiate themselves from Halbs and such. I'd propose P+S 13 instead of 12. While most of the time this won't matter since they're prime targets are infantry it would be helpful for the games where you want to send them into a jack/beast.
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