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Post by maplewhisky on Jan 29, 2018 22:03:45 GMT
Interesting, I have 2 Wardens, Megs & a Guardian in my build just now so I'm definitely gonna need to give it more reps into Grymkin, I just defaulted to Una. Now I'm just trying to build some kind of Thyra & Amon list. I don't really want to mess with my Krueger list atm, it's been doing great, but I don't think it can tango with Amon (not enough guns). Is there maybe some other list I can look to play? We can tailor as hard as we like for Amon & Thyra.
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Post by Lord_Randall on Jan 30, 2018 0:17:40 GMT
One of the main issue against dreamer is enfeeble... one of your beater is going to be made useless.
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 30, 2018 0:20:12 GMT
One of the main issue against dreamer is enfeeble... one of your beater is going to be made useless. Why not take Ellish then? 5 points of Spell hate?
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Post by maplewhisky on Jan 30, 2018 1:15:27 GMT
One of the main issue against dreamer is enfeeble... one of your beater is going to be made useless. Why not take Ellish then? 5 points of Spell hate? Lotta points for not that much. Enfeeble sucks but it's hopefully not catastrophically game endingly bad. I do play 4 heavies, so hopefully we can get there. I'm really hoping I can run into some Grymkin.
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 30, 2018 1:31:47 GMT
Why not take Ellish then? 5 points of Spell hate? Lotta points for not that much. Enfeeble sucks but it's hopefully not catastrophically game endingly bad. I do play 4 heavies, so hopefully we can get there. I'm really hoping I can run into some Grymkin. Unbinding and arcane void are great on him. For 5 points he does solid work! He even has puppet master! Not that much is really disengeneous to him!
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Post by maplewhisky on Jan 30, 2018 2:52:33 GMT
Sure I mean I guess we do have better threat than most on Unbinding and Wind Storm does actually keep him safe, but I have very rarely been like "oh no, upkeeps" when I have Woldwyrds. Offensive upkeeps that mess with your models are really rare in mk3, I think Enfeeble might be the only one I care about? I do like Puppet Master, obviously, but in my current Krueger2 list there's no way I could ever find points for him. Like I'd have to drop a warbeast, which I'm not keen on. Still, I hadn't thought of the synergies between TK, Windstorm & Eilish, that might be something to keep in my back pocket for future lists, cheers.
I really want to try him with Wurmwood too, because that guy has a lot of really key rolls and PM would be very effective. DH with the Crocpot is high on my list of things to try.
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 30, 2018 3:39:16 GMT
Puppet master on key stranglehold’s wins games
Also it’s basically required for Loki haha. Missing with that hook is literally ball busting in a tournament game.
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Post by maplewhisky on Jan 31, 2018 3:54:41 GMT
Alright, so I think I’ve hit the flaw in having Krueger2 as my mainlist.
Casters I don’t think I can really handle:
Rasheth Amon Una2
Building a list that handles those 3 is real, real tough. I think the most I can manage is 2/3. Anyone got any cool suggestions? Some magic list that fixes all of these matchups? Some casters I like in theory are:
Morv2, she has the capability to overwhelm Amon and Una2, bringing lots of mans for the former and huge accuracy (and lots of mans) for the latter. I’m super not convinced about her capability to handle Rasheth, mostly because her to battlegroup is probably the Stalker/Gorax and keeping the stalker alive is going to be a nightmare. Still, with either DH or WH I could see her making a game of it, but I’m very sceptical of her ability to handle turtles, and the Stalker will have to spend the entire game hiding somewhere. I will say I’m not entirely convinced Rasheth wont just table her before she makes it there, especially in DH. I think Wild Hunt with double skinwalkers might have a better chance there but.... still doesn’t seem great.
Krueger1, played in WH or DH. This guy is much the same as Morv2, except instead of the killer accuracy he brings Gale Winds. I think he’s worse vs Una and Amon than Morv2, but will be better vs Rasheth. How much better I honestly cannot say, I would need to play the matchup (I’d probably start with DH) but I imagine it’s not awful.
Wurmwood. So this one is complicated. I think he’s probably the best of these so far vs Rasheth, Turtle bases are so big that Rasheth can’t reliably protect them from Stranglehold with Castigate, which is huge, and his feat is fantastic in the matchup, especially in combination with Stranglehold. Thing is, I think his ideal list vs Rasheth is in bones, but to not get absolutely trashed by Una he probably wants to be in Wild Hunt, but at least Devourer’s Host. And at that point I’m not 100% sure how well his game holds up vs Rasheth. His Amon matchup is also not stellar, but if he plays one of the infantry themes he can probably get a pass vs Amon just by putting 40 or so models on the table.
Basically, it looks like there’s going to be a hole in my pairing vs at least one common caster from other factions, which is usually something I try to avoid if at all possible. Any ideas? Experience of what works vs Rasheth is exceptionally welcome, that guy has me scratching my head at the moment.
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Post by Lord_Randall on Jan 31, 2018 5:55:07 GMT
Sadly our skorne player switched to grimkin... I can't help in this case.
I had decent success in the past with both Morv2 and Krueger1 but he was playing a double venators, single turtle build. I have no experience against more recent lists.
Krueger was better because of silly defence level you can reach with terrain staking with gale wind. But mat 8 isn't enought for handle Una CotW.
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 31, 2018 11:44:32 GMT
Rasheth is in winds of death with double derp turtle right?
Why is Krueger not working? Is it the combination of trample plus dual attack that negates windstorm and the durability of the turtles under feat? Could you give us a walk-through on how the games normally go for you. A guardian with hunters mar, enrage and tk, threatens the exact same as a derp turtle (so farther when you pop feat and catch the turtles) Pow 20 with free charge should do around 30-ish damage so you need to soften up with something. I think you can get yourself and alpha on it consistently if you can either bait him to feat first or use your feat and shooting to take down a turtle and something else. If you can kill a turtle and other things before he gets any real work done, you should be up on attrition. Windstorm should be shutting down the rest of the army as well.
It definitely sucks to play into for us (turtles ignore just about all terrain on the table). The issue is, building a list that can handle 2Una and Amon (though I think krueger can play into amon in the right scenario) is going to be difficult if you want it to also handle rasheth. Mostly because double derp turtle almost requires you to have a list like bradigus or Una 2 to crack the turtles.
You should try the Devo Host under Morv 2 first. Into rasheth and then Una2. Mat 7(8 with white mane) with re-rolls should handle birds and I think def 15 ravagers under fog of war, that you can bring back with the feat will help a lot as well. Its still going to be rough actually killing the turtles, who will be able to literally walk around anything you use to jam. But you can potentially jam them out of scenario because they cannot trample over ravagers.
I would also keep trying kreuger 2 into rasheth, maybe you just need to modify your list a bit. The turtles have to get within 7" with windstorm to shoot their gun, and then repo means they will only be 10" away. Trampling that gives them a ridiculous 19" threat even under windstorm, but if your opponent does that then you can probably shoot them up a bit, feat, and buy yourself a turn. Under feat they only threaten 11" for melee (10" for the important club tail) I think its playable. More so than the Una 2 match up, which I think krueger has 0 game into.
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Post by musza on Jan 31, 2018 13:07:28 GMT
if you drop Krueger2 you need to think about Nemo3 back again
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Post by maplewhisky on Jan 31, 2018 19:15:19 GMT
if you drop Krueger2 you need to think about Nemo3 back again Woah woah woah, lets not get crazy now. I never said dropping Krueger, this is all speculation for his 2nd list. Rasheth is in winds of death with double derp turtle right? Why is Krueger not working? Is it the combination of trample plus dual attack that negates windstorm and the durability of the turtles under feat? Could you give us a walk-through on how the games normally go for you. A guardian with hunters mar, enrage and tk, threatens the exact same as a derp turtle (so farther when you pop feat and catch the turtles) Pow 20 with free charge should do around 30-ish damage so you need to soften up with something. I think you can get yourself and alpha on it consistently if you can either bait him to feat first or use your feat and shooting to take down a turtle and something else. If you can kill a turtle and other things before he gets any real work done, you should be up on attrition. Windstorm should be shutting down the rest of the army as well. It definitely sucks to play into for us (turtles ignore just about all terrain on the table). The issue is, building a list that can handle 2Una and Amon (though I think krueger can play into amon in the right scenario) is going to be difficult if you want it to also handle rasheth. Mostly because double derp turtle almost requires you to have a list like bradigus or Una 2 to crack the turtles. You should try the Devo Host under Morv 2 first. Into rasheth and then Una2. Mat 7(8 with white mane) with re-rolls should handle birds and I think def 15 ravagers under fog of war, that you can bring back with the feat will help a lot as well. Its still going to be rough actually killing the turtles, who will be able to literally walk around anything you use to jam. But you can potentially jam them out of scenario because they cannot trample over ravagers. I would also keep trying kreuger 2 into rasheth, maybe you just need to modify your list a bit. The turtles have to get within 7" with windstorm to shoot their gun, and then repo means they will only be 10" away. Trampling that gives them a ridiculous 19" threat even under windstorm, but if your opponent does that then you can probably shoot them up a bit, feat, and buy yourself a turn. Under feat they only threaten 11" for melee (10" for the important club tail) I think its playable. More so than the Una 2 match up, which I think krueger has 0 game into. Uhh. Few things before I talk about how the game went! Reivers threat 22 with 16" ranged guns, the whole battlegroup has RNG14 guns, so Wind Storm is very hard to use vs the rest of the list. Also, the club tail has 2" reach also. The game basically went like this. I lost the roll for first and the table didn't have much good terrain for me. I could have ample concealment but it isn't particularly great in Bones. I had to deploy my AD far enough back to not get rekt by turn one run & arcing. So, Rasheth took first and basically every model ran up the table. I had both sentry stones make a little forest cubby and Krueger and Megalith stood behind it, projecting out Wind Storm to the majority of the table. One Turtle got Eyeless Sight and so did a Shaman, and between those two and some arced Sunders I lost both Sentry Stones, otherwise Rasheth just shimmied. At this point I'm down to basically using my heavies to screen Krueger, so I put a TK into both turtles and feated (otherwise they can just walk and hit you....), with Krueger hiding behind a Warden & my Guardian, all 3 models in 2 stone triangles. Rasheth feated back, killed my Guardian and Warden and broke both stone triangles. At this point I could send one of my heavies into a turtle to kill it, which I did, but then I lost from there as I had no way to clean up the full unit of Reivers, 2nd Turtle and 3 lights just plowing shots into my army. I don't doubt I could have played it better but when he gets first and can just mostly run up the table it is very, very hard to keep him down. i threaten his turtles about 15" out of my Deployment Zone but if he just stands at 16.1" it's so hard for me to realistically do anything. I think the next time I play it I'm going to try keeping the Sentry Stones much safer, I shouldn't have let him have a turn where he basically killed those for free and backed up. I'm keen to play it again but it seems really really tough. Next time I play it I'll document it and hopefully I'll learn something else.
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 31, 2018 20:55:58 GMT
Forgot they can give the turtles eyeless. That’s makes the fight a lot worse.
Derp turtles do suck no question there. I would go ahead and try the Devo Host fight first just to see how it goes, but I don’t think you can actually kill the turtles in that build.
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xadmar
Junior Strategist
Posts: 173
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Post by xadmar on Jan 31, 2018 21:51:35 GMT
So how does circle normally combat this? Flock of birds?
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Post by jisidro on Feb 1, 2018 16:53:08 GMT
So how does circle normally combat this? Flock of birds?
Fast hard hitting models are baaad for circle... My guess is flock of birds isn't ideal or even very good... but I never played it.
SA is a 13" Threat Cav model... so it's a boosted 9+ (MAT 6, right?) for 3D6+5 of damage and make the bird DEF 5... Shoot to death and then it's buy/boost on another for similar treatment. If he gets two dead is a wash in army points... This is a basic SA, not accounting for any buffs.
I'd try to play around the terrain but if they take the eyeless sight bog trog that they can get in any theme you lose the mini cloud Wall tanigh can do which probably sucks...
But I'm not good with Una2... What does a Pro-Una2 reccomend?
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