|
Post by jisidro on Aug 4, 2018 8:28:50 GMT
Ive played an Archangel, and the gun is fine. I dont get why the Covenant is a hard counter. Force before movement. If the Covenant is standing 10” away, whats so hard about killing it? Usually LoS blocking terrain. You also need 5 attacks... And perhaps there is a Harby nearby.
|
|
|
Post by streetpizza on Aug 4, 2018 11:38:16 GMT
I hate to suggest it but the raptor could probably do very well with a change to ROF d3+1
|
|
|
Post by jisidro on Aug 4, 2018 14:31:19 GMT
I hate to suggest it but the raptor could probably do very well with a change to ROF d3+1 It could but I can't see it happening. D3+1 with lightning generator and the animus? Doesn't sound right.
|
|
|
Post by wolfchild on Aug 4, 2018 15:32:53 GMT
Like, try playing SR into any Lamentation caster. Sad times. Wouldn't matter in CotW. Doubling 0 is still 0. Actually in WM/H u work out multiples/division b4 plus/minus, so the Animus would double to Cost 2, then the CotW theme drops it back to COST 1. That again leaves SR w just 2 fury for boosts.
|
|
|
Post by streetpizza on Aug 4, 2018 16:11:46 GMT
Wouldn't matter in CotW. Doubling 0 is still 0. Actually in WM/H u work out multiples/division b4 plus/minus, so the Animus would double to Cost 2, then the CotW theme drops it back to COST 1. That again leaves SR w just 2 fury for boosts. Got a reference on that? I'm not 100% sure so it would be good to see where you're getting that from.
|
|
mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
|
Post by mazog on Aug 4, 2018 16:20:16 GMT
They apply standard mathematical order of operations, which is multiplication and division first, then add and subtract. It still makes the Animus cost reasonable when it was inflated to be ridiculous.
|
|
|
Post by wolfchild on Aug 4, 2018 16:28:31 GMT
Actually in WM/H u work out multiples/division b4 plus/minus, so the Animus would double to Cost 2, then the CotW theme drops it back to COST 1. That again leaves SR w just 2 fury for boosts. Got a reference on that? I'm not 100% sure so it would be good to see where you're getting that from. Page 17 refers to ‘base stats, current stats and modifiers’: 1 Apply modifiers that double the stat 2 Apply modifiers that halve the stat 3 Apply bonuses that add to the stat 4 Apply penalties that reduce the stat. I’m assuming ‘COST’ for a spell/animus is basically a spell ‘stat’.
|
|
|
Post by challenger on Aug 6, 2018 0:39:41 GMT
I hate to suggest it but the raptor could probably do very well with a change to ROF d3+1 I'd be happy with just straight ROF2 personally, to lessen the fury tax. i feel like d3+1 is a bit too strong when it averages three boostable POW 16s w/ animus. But then again, it might be worth testing
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Aug 6, 2018 1:47:45 GMT
I hate to suggest it but the raptor could probably do very well with a change to ROF d3+1 I'd be happy with just straight ROF2 personally, to lessen the fury tax. i feel like d3+1 is a bit too strong when it averages three boostable POW 16s w/ animus. But then again, it might be worth testing I think RoF is better than D3+1 because potential 4 Rat 8 Pow 16’s with Lightning generator seems a bit much.
|
|
|
Post by streetpizza on Aug 6, 2018 11:09:34 GMT
I'd be happy with just straight ROF2 personally, to lessen the fury tax. i feel like d3+1 is a bit too strong when it averages three boostable POW 16s w/ animus. But then again, it might be worth testing I think RoF is better than D3+1 because potential 4 Rat 8 Pow 16’s with Lightning generator seems a bit much. 2x storm striders are less points and they do the same thing even more reliably (yes i know ... 1 pow less). So no ... its not too much. Have you seen the guns on the hurricane, revelator, judicator, victor, conquest or hyperion? Just to name a few. Hordes can and should have nice things too. Look at the archangel. its got d3+1 pow 14's that auto light on fire in AOE 3's. Don't see complaints there either. Wanna guess what it's animus does?
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Aug 6, 2018 11:33:29 GMT
I think RoF is better than D3+1 because potential 4 Rat 8 Pow 16’s with Lightning generator seems a bit much. 2x storm striders are less points and they do the same thing even more reliably (yes i know ... 1 pow less). So no ... its not too much. Have you seen the guns on the hurricane, revelator, judicator, victor, conquest or hyperion? Just to name a few. Hordes can and should have nice things too. Look at the archangel. its got d3+1 pow 14's that auto light on fire in AOE 3's. Don't see complaints there either. Wanna guess what it's animus does? Sure, But Storm Striders don't also wreck a heavy in melee and have a native 12" melee threat. Nor do they have the ability to buy/boost 4 times. Think of the raptor animus as the combined ability of the +2 accuracy on the Strider AND the +2 damage of a firefly, then add in its melee potential and threat range. In addition to all this, Storm Striders are over-tuned/under-costed for what they do Hurricane is also 39 points. Revelator has short ranged guns at a mighty rat5 and no way to boost them all (only boost damage on one) with little way of increasing rat in faction outside of eye and flare (which requires another rat 5 model to hit, meaning you are investing and additional 16 points in support at a minimum. Judicator? Rat1. Nuff said. Victor is only a single shot pow 15 with nifty attack types, more raw damage and infantry control from the raptor at pow 16 and 2 lightning genrators. Conquest is a mighty rat 4, making him significantly less accurate, and slightly lower damage output due to being 1 pow less. Hyperion was made way to cheap in cid, even then its a single shot so raptor wins out in damage and threat range. You have to consider the whole package when making these comparisons, the raptor actually functions properly, it doesn't really need anything else outside of maybe decreasing the cost or increasing its pow. Almost every colossal in the game is going down to 35 at the most, so maybe we just drop it to 35 and call it a day. I could see you wanting to adjust cost, but I really don't think its abilities need to modified till we all test it more.
|
|
|
Post by streetpizza on Aug 6, 2018 12:47:32 GMT
2x storm striders are less points and they do the same thing even more reliably (yes i know ... 1 pow less). So no ... its not too much. Have you seen the guns on the hurricane, revelator, judicator, victor, conquest or hyperion? Just to name a few. Hordes can and should have nice things too. Look at the archangel. its got d3+1 pow 14's that auto light on fire in AOE 3's. Don't see complaints there either. Wanna guess what it's animus does? Sure, But Storm Striders don't also wreck a heavy in melee and have a native 12" melee threat. Nor do they have the ability to buy/boost 4 times. Think of the raptor animus as the combined ability of the +2 accuracy on the Strider AND the +2 damage of a firefly, then add in its melee potential and threat range. In addition to all this, Storm Striders are over-tuned/under-costed for what they do Hurricane is also 39 points. Revelator has short ranged guns at a mighty rat5 and no way to boost them all (only boost damage on one) with little way of increasing rat in faction outside of eye and flare (which requires another rat 5 model to hit, meaning you are investing and additional 16 points in support at a minimum. Judicator? Rat1. Nuff said. Victor is only a single shot pow 15 with nifty attack types, more raw damage and infantry control from the raptor at pow 16 and 2 lightning genrators. Conquest is a mighty rat 4, making him significantly less accurate, and slightly lower damage output due to being 1 pow less. Hyperion was made way to cheap in cid, even then its a single shot so raptor wins out in damage and threat range. You have to consider the whole package when making these comparisons, the raptor actually functions properly, it doesn't really need anything else outside of maybe decreasing the cost or increasing its pow. Almost every colossal in the game is going down to 35 at the most, so maybe we just drop it to 35 and call it a day. I could see you wanting to adjust cost, but I really don't think its abilities need to modified till we all test it more. Them some pretty big blinders you've got on Mac. Two storm striders are 2 to 6 boosts averaging at 4 per turn. The big turn they shoot they're very likely to have 3 each. Again with much better in faction support for shooting. Yes the raptor CAN wreck a heavy in melee but then you're comitting a 37 point model to kill something in the 12 to 19 point range and with its horrible def stats it will not survive retaliation. The raptor will live and die by its ranged output and how well it can contribute before it has to go into melee. The hurricane is actually worth every one of those 39 points because of the arc node and the the fact that is 4 fantastic shots per turn and decently high powered fists with arcnode damage. It actually has the utility to justify a higher point cost and has the in faction support to dial it up even further. This is what I'm gunning for with the raptor if it stays in the 37 point range. For all of the other models list there are secondary guns not just the main event. You seem to conveniently ignore these. Yes they have lowish Rat but each of these factions has good ranged knock down options or flare or good caster buffs for ranged attacks. Victor - 2x d3 shots on range 12 pow 12 which can benefit from flare on the main gun Conquest 2x rof 2 range 12 AOE3 high explosive pow 10 cannons with creeping barrage Judi - 2x sp10 signs and portents flame throwers Hype - 2x d3 shots at rng 12 pow 12 The raptor does not win out in damage and threat range you're just cherry picking the parts you want to see. The secondary guns on the colossals is where a good chunk of their value comes from and we need to see similar out put from the gargantuans at range or they'll remain on the shelf. Also at the 32 points the Hype is finally where it needs to be. We need to see similar aggressive costing on the big guys or they will continue to fail to measure up to just taking 2 to 3 heavies every time.
|
|
snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
|
Post by snoozer on Aug 6, 2018 13:05:19 GMT
The inherent selling Point of a gargantuan is, that it keeps fighting longer. If you have 2 Heavies and apply the Damage needed to kill one, one is gone (or severely crippled and useless). Same Damage does not stop a Gargantuan (unless you roll lucky and take out key Systems). This is even more evident for Warbeast-Gargantuans. That one buff also suddenly applies to more of your army at once. This is why I would be first of all very careful about too aggresive pricing on Gargs. Also do you really want to be "forced" to take then instead of small (more affordable) heavies? If the Storm Raptor would be a few points lower, would it then suddenly be an auto incluce? 1 point down would be about 2.7% cheaper. I feel that people are way to selective about this. Miniatures are either "way too good, auto include" or "compleate worthless trash". Decided by one special rule added, or a few points. And most often just by the "delta" applied in its change. You can always talk things down or praise them. I think in the end it comes down to testing the model and seeing its true strength. Many things look sweet on paper, but never really work on the table. On the other hand, if you play games, that small weird rule, or that little stat-change or that single additional shot are suddenly priceless. I think Jaden is pretty happy with the Bird: www.loswarmachine.com/losgeneral/2018/7/31/warmachine-and-hordes-circle-battle-report-kromac-2-call-of-the-wild-vs-gastone-2-resistanceAnd if we just talk about maybe another point down in cost, then it is already in the right realm of cost.
|
|
|
Post by paradox on Aug 6, 2018 13:13:10 GMT
2x storm striders are less points and they do the same thing even more reliably (yes i know ... 1 pow less). So no ... its not too much. Have you seen the guns on the hurricane, revelator, judicator, victor, conquest or hyperion? Just to name a few. Hordes can and should have nice things too. Look at the archangel. its got d3+1 pow 14's that auto light on fire in AOE 3's. Don't see complaints there either. Wanna guess what it's animus does? Sure, But Storm Striders don't also wreck a heavy in melee and have a native 12" melee threat. Nor do they have the ability to buy/boost 4 times. Think of the raptor animus as the combined ability of the +2 accuracy on the Strider AND the +2 damage of a firefly, then add in its melee potential and threat range. In addition to all this, Storm Striders are over-tuned/under-costed for what they do Hurricane is also 39 points. Revelator has short ranged guns at a mighty rat5 and no way to boost them all (only boost damage on one) with little way of increasing rat in faction outside of eye and flare (which requires another rat 5 model to hit, meaning you are investing and additional 16 points in support at a minimum. Judicator? Rat1. Nuff said. Victor is only a single shot pow 15 with nifty attack types, more raw damage and infantry control from the raptor at pow 16 and 2 lightning genrators. Conquest is a mighty rat 4, making him significantly less accurate, and slightly lower damage output due to being 1 pow less. Hyperion was made way to cheap in cid, even then its a single shot so raptor wins out in damage and threat range. You have to consider the whole package when making these comparisons, the raptor actually functions properly, it doesn't really need anything else outside of maybe decreasing the cost or increasing its pow. Almost every colossal in the game is going down to 35 at the most, so maybe we just drop it to 35 and call it a day. I could see you wanting to adjust cost, but I really don't think its abilities need to modified till we all test it more. The SR effective buffed range, even with previewed changes, is 10. Revelator is RNG10 on its main guns, with 14 on the secondary. Judicator has SP10 secondary. Also built in S&P, so RAT1 on the main guns, but extra die dropping lowest. Both colossals are also base PS21 fists. And more durable in wounds and ARM. As to melee wrecking heavies. MAT6 into DEF12 (or buffed higher) heavies? OK. Id rather send a warpwolf for half the cost or less. The SR has shit for guns compared across its weight class, and its melee is pretty meh, with a 3rd initial at the cost of 2-3PS to all initials. And mainly relying on Primal as a buff really Firetrucking sucks.
|
|
|
Post by paradox on Aug 6, 2018 13:20:39 GMT
Sure, But Storm Striders don't also wreck a heavy in melee and have a native 12" melee threat. Nor do they have the ability to buy/boost 4 times. Think of the raptor animus as the combined ability of the +2 accuracy on the Strider AND the +2 damage of a firefly, then add in its melee potential and threat range. In addition to all this, Storm Striders are over-tuned/under-costed for what they do Hurricane is also 39 points. Revelator has short ranged guns at a mighty rat5 and no way to boost them all (only boost damage on one) with little way of increasing rat in faction outside of eye and flare (which requires another rat 5 model to hit, meaning you are investing and additional 16 points in support at a minimum. Judicator? Rat1. Nuff said. Victor is only a single shot pow 15 with nifty attack types, more raw damage and infantry control from the raptor at pow 16 and 2 lightning genrators. Conquest is a mighty rat 4, making him significantly less accurate, and slightly lower damage output due to being 1 pow less. Hyperion was made way to cheap in cid, even then its a single shot so raptor wins out in damage and threat range. You have to consider the whole package when making these comparisons, the raptor actually functions properly, it doesn't really need anything else outside of maybe decreasing the cost or increasing its pow. Almost every colossal in the game is going down to 35 at the most, so maybe we just drop it to 35 and call it a day. I could see you wanting to adjust cost, but I really don't think its abilities need to modified till we all test it more. Them some pretty big blinders you've got on Mac. Two storm striders are 2 to 6 boosts averaging at 4 per turn. The big turn they shoot they're very likely to have 3 each. Again with much better in faction support for shooting. Yes the raptor CAN wreck a heavy in melee but then you're comitting a 37 point model to kill something in the 12 to 19 point range and with its horrible def stats it will not survive retaliation. The raptor will live and die by its ranged output and how well it can contribute before it has to go into melee. The hurricane is actually worth every one of those 39 points because of the arc node and the the fact that is 4 fantastic shots per turn and decently high powered fists with arcnode damage. It actually has the utility to justify a higher point cost and has the in faction support to dial it up even further. This is what I'm gunning for with the raptor if it stays in the 37 point range. For all of the other models list there are secondary guns not just the main event. You seem to conveniently ignore these. Yes they have lowish Rat but each of these factions has good ranged knock down options or flare or good caster buffs for ranged attacks. Victor - 2x d3 shots on range 12 pow 12 which can benefit from flare on the main gun Conquest 2x rof 2 range 12 AOE3 high explosive pow 10 cannons with creeping barrage Judi - 2x sp10 signs and portents flame throwers Hype - 2x d3 shots at rng 12 pow 12 The raptor does not win out in damage and threat range you're just cherry picking the parts you want to see. The secondary guns on the colossals is where a good chunk of their value comes from and we need to see similar out put from the gargantuans at range or they'll remain on the shelf. Also at the 32 points the Hype is finally where it needs to be. We need to see similar aggressive costing on the big guys or they will continue to fail to measure up to just taking 2 to 3 heavies every time. Yup. The revelator is 2x POW15 4” BE AoEs, and 2x POW12 remove Stealth shots. With typical choir buff you either cant shoot it in return, cant spell it, or shoot POW17/14. The rev can one-round heavies at range here. Not to mention it also punches harder. And its AoE effects stave off infantry at range too, rather than letting them into melee to hit it. The rev is flat better and cheaper than SR.
|
|