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Post by paradox on Aug 3, 2018 15:54:14 GMT
Its also impressively fragile. And offense tied to MAT6? Meh. There is not a single colossal or garg in the game that is higher than MAT6. What exactly do you want? A lower point cost. . I thought that was evident from my comments above RE cost vs expected performance. MAT6 might be pretty standard, but 37pts is the high side of cost, whereas the raptors gun is substandard compared to most, and its not durable enough to melee with. Primal is the most available melee, and also the worst for such a costly model. It requires an opponent to screw up and let you live the dream by nailing 2 heavies in a turn to generate even an OK trade for it. So MAT6 is nice, sure. Helluvalot better than 5. But it aint blowing my skirt. Especially not at that price point.
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 3, 2018 16:05:57 GMT
Arn't all Garg/Cols MAT 6? I know Cygnars are. Not all are 37pts. And most have a far better gun. Keep in mind it has 3 Initials, a Disruption Beak. And lightning generator on every single attack. It’s also basically immune to single would infantry without them alldting because pow 12 plasma nimbus. Sure it’s expensive, but based off what I have seen it’s worth it.
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Post by streetpizza on Aug 3, 2018 16:30:59 GMT
Honestly I haven't seen any of the colossals or gargants be worth their cost if they're over the 35pt threshold. None of them add up to the board presence of 2 premium heavies or 3+ budget ones.
The ideal range here should be in the 30 to 35 pt range depending on what they bring to the table.
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Post by paradox on Aug 3, 2018 16:51:17 GMT
Not all are 37pts. And most have a far better gun. Keep in mind it has 3 Initials, a Disruption Beak. And lightning generator on every single attack. It’s also basically immune to single would infantry without them alldting because pow 12 plasma nimbus. Sure it’s expensive, but based off what I have seen it’s worth it. 3 initials vs 2 on most colossals, but also 2-3 PS lower.
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Post by streetpizza on Aug 3, 2018 17:11:12 GMT
Keep in mind it has 3 Initials, a Disruption Beak. And lightning generator on every single attack. It’s also basically immune to single would infantry without them alldting because pow 12 plasma nimbus. Sure it’s expensive, but based off what I have seen it’s worth it. 3 initials vs 2 on most colossals, but also 2-3 PS lower. and far fewer shots.
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Post by paradox on Aug 3, 2018 17:29:01 GMT
3 initials vs 2 on most colossals, but also 2-3 PS lower. and far fewer shots. Yup. The SR is basically in the hitting class of most 20pt heavies. Only it has all the downsides of a huge base and an extra 17 pts in cost, even post -CID preview, for a couple more SPD, a few more wounds, and Flight.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Aug 3, 2018 18:02:06 GMT
There is not a single colossal or garg in the game that is higher than MAT6. What exactly do you want? A lower point cost. . I thought that was evident from my comments above RE cost vs expected performance. MAT6 might be pretty standard, but 37pts is the high side of cost, whereas the raptors gun is substandard compared to most, and its not durable enough to melee with. Primal is the most available melee, and also the worst for such a costly model. It requires an opponent to screw up and let you live the dream by nailing 2 heavies in a turn to generate even an OK trade for it. So MAT6 is nice, sure. Helluvalot better than 5. But it aint blowing my skirt. Especially not at that price point. Mentioning MAT6 as a reason for reducing the point cost is a dead argument, because all gargantuans and colossals are MAT6 so it's irrelevant. The gun is certainly not sub-standard. It's one of the better Gargantuan guns in the game (two shots at RAT 8/POW16 with lightning generator for a total fury cost of 2 without boosting) is strong. I may not be opposed to a reduced point cost below 37 (need to see how things shake out), but MAT6 would have absolutely nothing to do with that analysis.
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Post by paradox on Aug 3, 2018 18:04:10 GMT
A lower point cost. . I thought that was evident from my comments above RE cost vs expected performance. MAT6 might be pretty standard, but 37pts is the high side of cost, whereas the raptors gun is substandard compared to most, and its not durable enough to melee with. Primal is the most available melee, and also the worst for such a costly model. It requires an opponent to screw up and let you live the dream by nailing 2 heavies in a turn to generate even an OK trade for it. So MAT6 is nice, sure. Helluvalot better than 5. But it aint blowing my skirt. Especially not at that price point. Mentioning MAT6 as a reason for reducing the point cost is a dead argument, because all gargantuans and colossals are MAT6 so it's irrelevant. The gun is certainly not sub-standard. It's one of the better Gargantuan guns in the game (two shots at RAT 8/POW16 with lightning generator for a total fury cost of 2 without boosting) is strong. I may not be opposed to a reduced point cost below 37 (need to see how things shake out), but MAT6 would have absolutely nothing to do with that analysis. It wasnt my argument. I was saying “meh” to the MAT bump being offered as a plus to rebut my comment that SR was still overcosted at 37. Also, the gun is NOT strong. . POW14, need animus to buff it. Its moderate to weak.
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Post by mindwormjim on Aug 3, 2018 18:19:27 GMT
It's not really fair to discount the animus when discussing the gun. The extra range and reduced cost make applying the animus much easier than the live rules. Two RAT 8 boosted POW 16's is pretty respectable.
That said, I'm not convinced that the gun and SPD 7 are enough to make up for the Storm Raptor's durability and melee output, which are both quite poor for its point cost. Not that I believe it needs to be stronger in melee or more durable, I just don't know if the proposed changes balance out those weaknesses sufficiently to make the model see the table more often.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Aug 3, 2018 18:26:02 GMT
Mentioning MAT6 as a reason for reducing the point cost is a dead argument, because all gargantuans and colossals are MAT6 so it's irrelevant. The gun is certainly not sub-standard. It's one of the better Gargantuan guns in the game (two shots at RAT 8/POW16 with lightning generator for a total fury cost of 2 without boosting) is strong. I may not be opposed to a reduced point cost below 37 (need to see how things shake out), but MAT6 would have absolutely nothing to do with that analysis. It wasnt my argument. I was saying “meh” to the MAT bump being offered as a plus to rebut my comment that SR was still overcosted at 37. Also, the gun is NOT strong. . POW14, need animus to buff it. Its moderate to weak. That's just not true regarding the gun. You "need" the animus to buff it, yes. But the animus is going to be only 1 fury. In Call of the Wild, the animus is free. If CID comes through, it will be a 10" range. RAT8/POW16 with lightning generator is a better version of the Storm Strider's gun (with a little less range). I don't understand in what universe you can can consider that gun to be moderate to weak? Compare it to every other Gargantuan's gun; it is better than most of them. It's weaker than most Colossal's guns, but that's normal for Gargantuans, and not by much.
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Post by paradox on Aug 3, 2018 18:35:54 GMT
It wasnt my argument. I was saying “meh” to the MAT bump being offered as a plus to rebut my comment that SR was still overcosted at 37. Also, the gun is NOT strong. . POW14, need animus to buff it. Its moderate to weak. That's just not true regarding the gun. You "need" the animus to buff it, yes. But the animus is going to be only 1 fury. In Call of the Wild, the animus is free. If CID comes through, it will be a 10" range. RAT8/POW16 with lightning generator is a better version of the Storm Strider's gun (with a little less range). I don't understand in what universe you can can consider that gun to be moderate to weak? Compare it to every other Gargantuan's gun; it is better than most of them. It's weaker than most Colossal's guns, but that's normal for Gargantuans, and not by much. So it is true. Its stats are actually POW14. It costs an animus to buff it. Eg. Covenant of Menoth. Its in 10”, you get no buff. Also interferes with any other animus. Funny thing about the SS is it shoots just as well unbuffed, for half the cost. Better, even, cause it just makes its own tokens. Compared to post-CID gargantuans or colossaos, its still worse.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Aug 3, 2018 18:47:50 GMT
That's just not true regarding the gun. You "need" the animus to buff it, yes. But the animus is going to be only 1 fury. In Call of the Wild, the animus is free. If CID comes through, it will be a 10" range. RAT8/POW16 with lightning generator is a better version of the Storm Strider's gun (with a little less range). I don't understand in what universe you can can consider that gun to be moderate to weak? Compare it to every other Gargantuan's gun; it is better than most of them. It's weaker than most Colossal's guns, but that's normal for Gargantuans, and not by much. So it is true. Its stats are actually POW14. It costs an animus to buff it. Eg. Covenant of Menoth. Its in 10”, you get no buff. Also interferes with any other animus. Funny thing about the SS is it shoots just as well unbuffed, for half the cost. Better, even, cause it just makes its own tokens. Compared to post-CID gargantuans or colossaos, its still worse. The Storm Strider's gun is better. It's also a battle engine and not a warbeast. It's also not a Circle model. The fact that a Circle model has a gun as good as or better than a premier shooting platform is strong evidence that the Storm Raptor's gun is good. Your analysis is completely unreasonable. "If you play in a very specific MU which prevents it from casting spells, and play that MU poorly, its gun is not as good." Okay...what's your point? If you play the Storm Strider into OW3 it's practically useless; does that mean it's a bad battle engine? Also, what other animus do you want on the Raptor? You're not going to primal it if you're planning to use its gun, are you? What other useful animus is available that you can put on it? Wraithbane is the only one that comes to mind. Guess what, competetition between Wraithbane and Primal is already a daily thing in Circle Orboros and almost every other faction which has access to Wraithbane. What's your point? If you're going to keep making esoteric and pointless arguments, I don't think it will fruitful to discuss further.
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Post by paradox on Aug 3, 2018 19:01:45 GMT
So it is true. Its stats are actually POW14. It costs an animus to buff it. Eg. Covenant of Menoth. Its in 10”, you get no buff. Also interferes with any other animus. Funny thing about the SS is it shoots just as well unbuffed, for half the cost. Better, even, cause it just makes its own tokens. Compared to post-CID gargantuans or colossaos, its still worse. The Storm Strider's gun is better. It's also a battle engine and not a warbeast. It's also not a Circle model. The fact that a Circle model has a gun as good as or better than a premier shooting platform is strong evidence that the Storm Raptor's gun is good. Your analysis is completely unreasonable. "If you play in a very specific MU which prevents it from casting spells, and play that MU poorly, its gun is not as good." Okay...what's your point? If you play the Storm Strider into OW3 it's practically useless; does that mean it's a bad battle engine? Also, what other animus do you want on the Raptor? You're not going to primal it if you're planning to use its gun, are you? What other useful animus is available that you can put on it? Wraithbane is the only one that comes to mind. Guess what, competetition between Wraithbane and Primal is already a daily thing in Circle Orboros and almost every other faction which has access to Wraithbane. What's your point? If you're going to keep making esoteric and pointless arguments, I don't think it will fruitful to discuss further. Its totally reasonable. Id rather take 2 purebloods for less ponts and better everything, because SR is objectively bad and over costed, both within the faction and the context of the greater game at large. As to Covenant, it makes mosts of my Menoth lists anyways. You have to account for anti spell/animus effects. You cant just decide that forcing for animus and forcing for the extra shot is free. Thats literally half its FURY. If you want a fruitful discussion, Im game. But lets not pretend spending 2 fury to get close to par on shooting is good.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on Aug 3, 2018 19:57:25 GMT
The Storm Strider's gun is better. It's also a battle engine and not a warbeast. It's also not a Circle model. The fact that a Circle model has a gun as good as or better than a premier shooting platform is strong evidence that the Storm Raptor's gun is good. Your analysis is completely unreasonable. "If you play in a very specific MU which prevents it from casting spells, and play that MU poorly, its gun is not as good." Okay...what's your point? If you play the Storm Strider into OW3 it's practically useless; does that mean it's a bad battle engine? Also, what other animus do you want on the Raptor? You're not going to primal it if you're planning to use its gun, are you? What other useful animus is available that you can put on it? Wraithbane is the only one that comes to mind. Guess what, competetition between Wraithbane and Primal is already a daily thing in Circle Orboros and almost every other faction which has access to Wraithbane. What's your point? If you're going to keep making esoteric and pointless arguments, I don't think it will fruitful to discuss further. Its totally reasonable. Id rather take 2 purebloods for less ponts and better everything, because SR is objectively bad and over costed, both within the faction and the context of the greater game at large. As to Covenant, it makes mosts of my Menoth lists anyways. You have to account for anti spell/animus effects. You cant just decide that forcing for animus and forcing for the extra shot is free. Thats literally half its FURY. If you want a fruitful discussion, Im game. But lets not pretend spending 2 fury to get close to par on shooting is good. This makes me think you haven't been reading anything anyone on here has written. CID preview is that the Animus will be cost 1. That's 25% of the Raptor's fury. In Call of the Wild (which is probably the theme in which you play the Raptor), the animus is literally free. Buying your second shot leaves the Raptor with 3 fury for boosts. At RAT8, it doesn't need to boost attack against most heavies. At POW16, it doesn't need to boost its damage against most targets where it wants to boost attack; in any case, you can still boost 3 of those 4 rolls. Read and consider before you post your rant about rules that you clearly don't understand.
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Post by paradox on Aug 3, 2018 20:23:15 GMT
Its totally reasonable. Id rather take 2 purebloods for less ponts and better everything, because SR is objectively bad and over costed, both within the faction and the context of the greater game at large. As to Covenant, it makes mosts of my Menoth lists anyways. You have to account for anti spell/animus effects. You cant just decide that forcing for animus and forcing for the extra shot is free. Thats literally half its FURY. If you want a fruitful discussion, Im game. But lets not pretend spending 2 fury to get close to par on shooting is good. This makes me think you haven't been reading anything anyone on here has written. CID preview is that the Animus will be cost 1. That's 25% of the Raptor's fury. In Call of the Wild (which is probably the theme in which you play the Raptor), the animus is literally free. Buying your second shot leaves the Raptor with 3 fury for boosts. At RAT8, it doesn't need to boost attack against most heavies. At POW16, it doesn't need to boost its damage against most targets where it wants to boost attack; in any case, you can still boost 3 of those 4 rolls. Read and consider before you post your rant about rules that you clearly don't understand. No I read. You just want to assume CotW for all SR use, but simultaneously also ignore any potential animus or spell issues in matchups. It cost a fury for animus. It costs a fury for a 2nd shot. Its base stats are RAT6 POW14. No amount of wishful thinking or handwaving can change that. Played in CotW, it benefits nicely, but still suffers from spell hate and still has to buy a 2nd shot. Whereas most other colossals are shooting 3-4+ times base. At POW14+, even. Its shooting is objectively on the weak side, and especially for cost. It CAN get +2/+2 on ranged vs targets in 10”, assuming previewed changes, but that leaves you at RNG10 for those shots. That is objectively short ranged for a colossal or gargantuan. Its MAT6, which is standard, has 3 initials, which is above average. But PS18/17, which is below average. At 12/18 and lighter on wounds, its objectively pretty vulnerable, especially for cost. Deceptively mobile will help with alot of this, but end of the day youre then paying 37pts and 2-4 fury for RNG10 RAT8 POW16 shots at best. When in faction you can get comparable for less, and acrosss gargantuans and colossals thats poor, especially for cost. It was total garbage pre-CID, and previewed changes only get it to barely adequate, but still decidedly lackluster. It requires a theme and its animus to get there, too. One thene is pretty garbage for such an investment. Compare revelator, which did not even get a CID but is still pretty boss for less, or post-CID judicator, which puts SR to shame and is cheaper still. Or victor. Now THATS a ranged colossal. Or blightbringer, which is also kinda meh but 32pts. At least none of those need a pay-for buff and one exact theme to do what a buffed SR does. I get you like the changes. I do too. Theyre all needed. But its not enough.
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