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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 11, 2018 20:57:05 GMT
Just so that I am on the same page here with everyone complaining about the Coven, what is this focus problem regarding taking damage? I'm going out on a limb and guessing that the damage can be divided between the witches and then each witch can spend focus individually to reduce it even more? Yep
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Jan 11, 2018 20:59:41 GMT
Just so that I am on the same page here with everyone complaining about the Coven, what is this focus problem regarding taking damage? I'm going out on a limb and guessing that the damage can be divided between the witches and then each witch can spend focus individually to reduce it even more? Yes. You can allocate 5 damage to each witch and they can each use a focus. So you can ignore 15 damage each time something hits the ball. It has 9 Focus before spells/allocation.
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Choco
Junior Strategist
Gorten, best feet in the game.
Posts: 571
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Post by Choco on Jan 11, 2018 21:12:59 GMT
Well damn... I was really hoping this wasn't true, but oh well. Something else to watch out for now. The Coven aren't played often in my meta so it's good know this stuff for when I do.
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Post by potato on Jan 12, 2018 13:47:31 GMT
In the long run, I feel like if someone is going up against a lot of E-leaps and they are leaving all of their necessary solo's within 4 inches of other targets, they should have expected to get crushed. I got a lot of wins when I started simply because the guys around here hadn't played against Cygnar for a while, but once they realized they just had to place differently, it got a lot harder for me, quickly. It's still funny when a newbie shows up or someone that hasn't played for a while and a whole unit dies to a Storm Strider, but the same thing happens when people drop dumb lists into Madrak1, and I don't hear people calling for a nerf. /end rant sure, there is counter play available to that aspect of e-leaps.
as I mentioned previously though, I think a nerf to match the change in COI is what's coming. Models with immunity: lightning get "Grounded", which states eleaps do not bounce from them. Being able to run up your firefly within 4" of an enemy heavy/caster, feat with Nemo3 and then essentially kill it without having to roll to hit is what people have an issue with.
it's clearly on the design team's radar, otherwise it wouldn't already work like this in COI
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Post by sludgeogre on Jan 12, 2018 18:21:25 GMT
In the long run, I feel like if someone is going up against a lot of E-leaps and they are leaving all of their necessary solo's within 4 inches of other targets, they should have expected to get crushed. I got a lot of wins when I started simply because the guys around here hadn't played against Cygnar for a while, but once they realized they just had to place differently, it got a lot harder for me, quickly. It's still funny when a newbie shows up or someone that hasn't played for a while and a whole unit dies to a Storm Strider, but the same thing happens when people drop dumb lists into Madrak1, and I don't hear people calling for a nerf. /end rant sure, there is counter play available to that aspect of e-leaps.
as I mentioned previously though, I think a nerf to match the change in COI is what's coming. Models with immunity: lightning get "Grounded", which states eleaps do not bounce from them. Being able to run up your firefly within 4" of an enemy heavy/caster, feat with Nemo3 and then essentially kill it without having to roll to hit is what people have an issue with.
it's clearly on the design team's radar, otherwise it wouldn't already work like this in COI
The only problem I have with that is that COI is pretty much lead by Oz, and from what I understand from watching his COI streams, they did that so e-leaps didn't dominate the hell out of that game. I don't think that Nemo3 dominates the whole game. I also think it makes sense to have at least one mechanic like this in the game that doesn't require hit rolls. I mean, there's plenty of knockdown and other mat fixing types of tech out there that accomplish similar goals. I still think the problem is just Nemo3's feat. If you had to get him up much closer in order to do the Firefly spark node caster murder jank, it would probably be a lot easier for people to outplay. There's a lot of assassination tech out there, and quite a bit in Cygnar in general, including a couple casters that are just straight up meant to hunt the opposing caster, but their threat ranges are smaller and more static.
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Post by snarlyyow on Jan 12, 2018 19:26:03 GMT
The idea that electroleaps in Cygnar need to be nerfed is crazy. You could do it, right? But then we'd need to have some melee infantry that's worth a shit or that gets cheaper. Which, like, you could do right? You could totally make electroleap worse than MKii electroleap and make Cygnar Stormguard just inherently better in exchange for that.
But Faction identity is important. You make Cygnar troopers cheaper or make Gun Mages POW12 or whatever to balance it out and then you're just having 13 factions that all start to look the same. Cygnar needs eleap like Skorne and Minions needs PS-umpteenmillion heavies. Is it fair that Skorne or Grymkin or Minions can one round a colossal while no other faction reasonably can? You don't see Female Doging about that and that stuff is more meta-breaking. Like, I wonder if I can even include a colossal right now and, if I do, I have to protect it if I'm forced into those matchups. In this case you're talking about 3 factions basically making a whole series of models totally irrelevant.
And I'm NOT complaining about it. Because faction identity is important. If you want parity go play Firetrucking chess. I don't want a game where every faction has a 13 point unit of faceless grunts and a 17 point heavy that one round a colossal and every faction has wraithbane and every faction has a way to mitigate fire and every faction has upkeep removal in 10 places. And I think that's what all this Female Doging is about "Those guys have those cool things, why don't I!?" STFU and buy into a different faction then. Or find a way to play around it, Lord knows the top tier players do. If Nemo3 was a problem how come he hasn't won 50%+ of the major tournaments in the last year since the themes were released? Electroleaps are a strong ability, I won't deny it. But to suggest that the faction that removes dudes with aplomb simply removes more dudes better is nuts. If Cygnar had arm debuffs and threat range extenders for heavies with 7 attacks that hit at PS21 everywhere you'd have a real problem, but we don't.
Factions are different. The factions are largely balanced. Strong abilities are strong. git gud.
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Post by spikevash13 on Jan 13, 2018 16:13:45 GMT
whats Female Doging
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Post by pvtjoker on Jan 13, 2018 19:35:23 GMT
Profanity filter for b*tching. But to Snarlyyow's point, there are a lot of things Cygnar doesn't have that we have to just deal with. The fact that we don't have a lot of magic denial, damage buffs, or effective Faction troops (Gravediggers being a recent upgrade) could also explain why our tournament pairings were limited to begin with and Heavy Metal suffers in SR17. Top that off with Heavy Metal got bumped to 30 pts of 'jacks and BE to get free points makes it even worse to spend points on screening Sword Knights, and no Merc Solo. Did we ever figure out what game breaking combo they are keeping us from?
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Post by bloodsplatterartist on Jan 14, 2018 11:29:49 GMT
I'm assuming they just felt that heavy metal was already to strong passed on its prevalence and decided it wouldn't need the buff of Merc solo access. Why they made that call right before a massive meta shift with SR17 is beyond me though.
Other thought is probably ragman or the OP magician solo that came out. Most of the popular heavy metal casters at the time Haley and pstryker don't have damage buffs but really want them.
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Post by pvtjoker on Jan 14, 2018 14:21:14 GMT
Heavy Metal being so prevalent was probably related to Haley2 Thornwall being a very popular list even pre-theme. Getting free solos was just a straight bonus to what a lot of people were taking.
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Post by sludgeogre on Jan 14, 2018 18:44:27 GMT
The reason we can't take merc solos is because in the pre theme-machine era, when PP was still planning on releasing themes only when the new models came out, people felt that having access to Ragman in Heavy Netal was just too much. I think with the nerf to 30 points for a free solo and the fact that everyone has themes now, they could probably walk back that restriction, but I highly doubt they will any time soon. Probably not in 2018 from the way the CID cycle looks unless they just toss it into an errata at some point, but it's pretty unlikely considering that Kraye and a few other casters are still doing quite well with the theme as it is anyway and don't really have use for Ragman as there's no one to screen him or sac pawn to.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 14, 2018 19:19:00 GMT
Heavy Metal needed to be toned down as it was massively buffed by adding Longgunners
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Jan 14, 2018 20:34:02 GMT
It was a topic in one of the latest chainattack podcasts. Jay told that PP had reached out to some players for feedback on potensial balancing problems If they let mercs into themes. PP got feedback that merc solos in HM could be an Issue.
But as other has said, this was when Haley2 (prenerf) in HM was dominitating GTs around. To bad they didnt wait until after all the themes were out and we saw the effects of the haley2 nerf.
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Post by pvtjoker on Jan 14, 2018 22:32:55 GMT
Heavy Metal needed to be toned down as it was massively buffed by adding Longgunners Well that would mean Long Gunners and Precursors potentially in the same list. Would you feel good seeing the crushed look of defeat in you opponents eyes as those hit the table?
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xadmar
Junior Strategist
Posts: 173
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Post by xadmar on Jan 18, 2018 16:47:15 GMT
I find it funny that they increased the points for free models so that we will be more inclined to take something other then jacks. But lets say that they kept the points the same and added Mercs in would people still have taken 100 points of jacks or do you think they would grab Ragman making most of our casters unable to get to 100 warjack points?
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