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Post by Azuresun on Jan 1, 2018 11:17:06 GMT
followed by a hand of vengeance theme benefit that gives back +2 to hit along with +2 damage in melee in what is probably PoMs best theme overall. On heavies only, if your opponent sets it off. Though I do think infantry were toned back a LOT in Mk3, and in hindsight, it was the same sort of thing that happened to the Mad Dogs--there was a problem and several small fixes were applied at the same time without waiting to see if just one or two would be enough. Infantry in Mk2 were way too good relative to warjacks--Tough potentially no-selling multiple attacks in a row, and the ability to skew DEF to 18+ was just crazy. And then area terrain got revised to make it much harder to claim concealment / elevation, and Iron Flesh got changed from a DEF skew waiting to happen and every warjack got a free boost and most warjacks got point drops and more boostable guns on the field plus everyone getting punished for Mk2 Warders being busted meant heavy infantry dropped in value and there were strong pressures against taking infantry from things like pre-errata Sentry Stones, Storm Lances and Caine2. A lot of little things, all applied at once without considering the cumulative effect. Also, can anyone explain what "negative game creep" is, and what it has to do with the actual subject of attack values allegedly rising? I'm confused.
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 1, 2018 12:00:19 GMT
And yet Posse came out of CID slightly cheaper on the max unit and more accurate against nonliving models. They took some small steps to buff them upwards (they're not that far behind the curve) in accordance with community requests even if they didn't satisfy everyone. If you compare them to Champs or Black Ogrun, it gets pretty sad. Even in the blindwater theme. The small steps were not enough to justify people playing them outside of blindwater. Re-rolls are good, but if you need to hit Def 14 those Re-rolling 8’s eat up clock and you still will end up missing a lot. I’m not saying possy are hot garbage, but for some reason they just never got the treatment other factions did. I mean for goodness sakes, PP’s first solution to BOBP was gang and a stat increase in CiD. Huge changes to start with on a really cheap unit. Why do minions have to beg for changes like that?
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Post by Gaston on Jan 1, 2018 14:33:25 GMT
Minion mindset from 7 years of Mk2 abuse?
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 1, 2018 16:10:05 GMT
Minion mindset from 7 years of Mk2 abuse? I never fully experienced minions in MK2 So I’m not to familiar with thier abuses haha
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Post by snarlyyow on Jan 1, 2018 20:36:25 GMT
Quite a few dropped in Def. Iron Fangs became Def12, kayazy became def 13, Nyss became def 14. Things are much easier to hit these days. This is totally true. The idea that defense isn't worse in MKiii is sort of silly. Gun Mages of all spectrums went from DEF15 to DEF14. This is a huge deal, that one point of DEF made them very difficult to hit for most troopers. Also, some stuff went down in. Aiyanna went from Magic Ability 8 to 7, for instance. While many jacks went from MAT6 to MAT7. Quite simply, DEF14 isn't as good as it used to be, but it's still pretty dang good. It would be silly to suggest that things are not easier to hit in MKiii. Things die in this game and they die reliably. Hardly anything lives to fight another day, suggesting otherwise is silly. Also, Convergence is going to be playing their multi-wound models with more regularity. I expect Tharn to see the light of day eventually. And you'll see Legion's Ogrun with some consistency soon enough. Multiwounders are coming back, they aren't as broken as they were in MKii, because they were totally broken back then and we don't need that back.
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Post by snarlyyow on Jan 1, 2018 20:52:32 GMT
THere's one other thing that people forget: 8 box multi-wound infantry has 40 boxes. But that's not really true because overkilling things doesn't matter, right? Like, let's say you have an ARM18 8 wound model. And I send a jack into that thing needing 5's to hit and a hard 8 to kill. A jack has about a 34% chance to kill it. So it needs to buy a second attack. If the first attack does 7 damage and the second also does damage, I needed to apply 14 points of damage to an 8 wound model to kill it. If I have to do that to every model the unit technically has 70 wounds.
I know there are smarter dudes who can explain this better than I can but, quite simply, those 40 wounds are worth wwwaaayyy more than 40 wounds on a jack or beast. It's probably the equivilent of 55 wounds total. It's a big deal. So of course 5 wounds isn't as good, it means those models die in a single hit to lots of things, an ARM18 model with five boxes dies to a charging POW12 about half the time. So those wounds are super difficult to balance.
One thing I would consider as a balancing mechanism is to create a new rule where those medium based models get +2 ARM from melee attacks against smaller based warrior models. This would allow them to take more attacks from Warrior Models but not jacks. Tharn Ravagers, who have a pretty lackluster defensive stat line, go from "dead from any charge" to "maybe they live through a PS12 charge and prolly live through a PS10 charge". Posse go to ARM18. Etc, etc. Basically, 5 boxes mean lots of these models just die trivially and 8 boxes means they frequently become very difficult to kill, especially if any sort of buff can be applied to them.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jan 2, 2018 6:03:25 GMT
I don't think "flattening" of defensive stats values is negative. It makes skews that little bit more managable for balanced armies which is a good thing for me (as is everything in the game which pushes focus from "what I buy for the list" to "how I play on the table")
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 2, 2018 10:43:44 GMT
I have no wish to return to the days of Miserable Meat Mountain, and I think for the most part that has been curtailed by most Medium Infantry being reduced to 5 boxes, so I don't have a problem with some of the weaker stuff getting buffed in CID.
I would watch the Man o War CID very carefully though, if Tanker solos count as Warrior models Strakhov 2 could probably be built to be pretty obnoxious, +3 arm and tough, plus Inviolable Resolve on a unit, and being able to repair them afterwards.
The other one to watch out for is Gatorman Posse with Maelock, arm 20 against melee, 8 boxes, tough and snacking seem like they could be hard to shift
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Post by Azuresun on Jan 2, 2018 14:17:47 GMT
Multiwounders are coming back, they aren't as broken as they were in MKii, because they were totally broken back then and we don't need that back. No, multi-wound infantry weren't broken. Cetrati and Warders were broken, when they were able to stack armour buffs to the sky and still have enough hitting power to beat down whatever just bounced off them. Ravagers, Warmongers, Arcuraii, Cinerators, Ogrun Assault Corps, etc were not. Heavy infantry became so popular because of the state of the game in Mk2, where counters to light infantry had proliferated, but warjacks were still bad--you needed something that could get through Lylyth2's scather spam or the Bile-Excarnate BS. Again, heavy infantry were a victim of the bad Mk3 habit of solving the same problem two or three times and applying all the solutions at once, even to models in that class which nobody had been complaining about.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jan 2, 2018 14:19:26 GMT
Wait, GMP are bad??? I will grant you they stink outside of Blindwater theme, but they jam armor skew like nobody's business for 10/16. They don't answer every problem like they did in Mk2, but they are pretty good into a lot of situations, and they still excel in arm/box skew.
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 2, 2018 14:33:10 GMT
Wait, GMP are bad??? I will grant you they stink outside of Blindwater theme, but they jam armor skew like nobody's business for 10/16. They don't answer every problem like they did in Mk2, but they are pretty good into a lot of situations, and they still excel in arm/box skew. Not “bad” just a failure of the devs to design them to fit outside of blindwater congregation. Why do they need a theme to be 8 Boxes? Just makes no sense to me. I agree with people pointing out not all heavy infantry in Mk2 were bonkers. Heavy infantry are only making s comeback after a serious CiD Re-Work. I have tried all of Circle and Protectorates heavy infantry and played pre-CiD champs. They were pretty terrible compared to single wound. Champs got a massive rework in CiD, as have black ogrun. Possy kind of got the short end up the CiD stick imo but people like them enough. We need to be for sure mindful of the next legion and Khador CiD. Me thinks things will get stupid if we don’t get some non-Legion/Khador players in there. Some suggestions for “fixes” I have seen are just...rediculous. I also say that as a circle player who thinks some of the proposed fixes for ravagers are also silly as well as a protectorate player who laughs at some of the preppsed changes to bastions.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jan 2, 2018 14:43:51 GMT
Not “bad” just a failure of the devs to design them to fit outside of blindwater congregation. Why do they need a theme to be 8 Boxes? Just makes no sense to me. I agree with people pointing out not all heavy infantry in Mk2 were bonkers. Heavy infantry are only making s comeback after a serious CiD Re-Work. I have tried all of Circle and Protectorates heavy infantry and played pre-CiD champs. They were pretty terrible compared to single wound. Champs got a massive rework in CiD, as have black ogrun. Possy kind of got the short end up the CiD stick imo but people like them enough. We need to be for sure mindful of the next legion and Khador CiD. Me thinks things will get stupid if we don’t get some non-Legion/Khador players in there. Some suggestions for “fixes” I have seen are just...rediculous. I also say that as a circle player who thinks some of the proposed fixes for ravagers are also silly as well as a protectorate player who laughs at some of the preppsed changes to bastions. hey now. Did you not see the Cryx CiD. Non-faction players are not allowed to participate. All you want to do is ruin our stuff. That's not a fair CiD process if everyone can just show up and complain that the CiD change is better than someone else's non-CiD model. [/sarcasm] I will entirely agree that the wish listing in the legion section is quite outlandish. But for the most part that has been identified by all, initiator and contributor alike, and has just turned into a for-fun echo chamber. But by all means, please set up as many tests as you can. I don't want bonkers stuff coming out of CiD even if I think there is far more powerful stuff out there. We need more out-of-faction perspective to keep things going in the right direction... But don't you dare hate on Golab's abilities. Points, fine. But I want that Pow 14 Finisher and Sprint animus!
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jan 2, 2018 14:55:12 GMT
Wait, GMP are bad??? I will grant you they stink outside of Blindwater theme, but they jam armor skew like nobody's business for 10/16. They don't answer every problem like they did in Mk2, but they are pretty good into a lot of situations, and they still excel in arm/box skew. Not “bad” just a failure of the devs to design them to fit outside of blindwater congregation. Why do they need a theme to be 8 Boxes? Just makes no sense to me. I agree with people pointing out not all heavy infantry in Mk2 were bonkers. Heavy infantry are only making s comeback after a serious CiD Re-Work. I have tried all of Circle and Protectorates heavy infantry and played pre-CiD champs. They were pretty terrible compared to single wound. Champs got a massive rework in CiD, as have black ogrun. Possy kind of got the short end up the CiD stick imo but people like them enough. We need to be for sure mindful of the next legion and Khador CiD. Me thinks things will get stupid if we don’t get some non-Legion/Khador players in there. Some suggestions for “fixes” I have seen are just...rediculous. I also say that as a circle player who thinks some of the proposed fixes for ravagers are also silly as well as a protectorate player who laughs at some of the preppsed changes to bastions. Well, I think the "only 8 boxes in Blindwater" did was an attempt to prevent unforeseen interactions with other non-Blindwater models. They were erring on the side of caution, trying not to outshine heavy infantry in other factions. For example, if GMP had 8 wounds in Disciples of Agony? Yeesh. +2 strength, no knockdown, protecting an Agonizer for even more armor spamming. I would love if they weren't lousy outside of Blindwater (as I have an old Rasheth chain-gang list from Mk2), but I think the game is largely better served that they remain only good when played "in faction". I do understand the general sentiment that "everyone else gets CiDs that send their army through the roof, why did Minions only come out mediocre?" It certainly is incredibly frustrating to see factions like Cryx and Cygnar get more and more goodies, while you get table scraps. Black Ogrun haven't come out yet, so I won't use them as a cause for alarm just yet. I will say their initial iteration in CiD was concerning, but since we don't know exactly where they will land I'll reserve judgement for now. Champs are great but they kept their 5 wounds so I don't think they are over the top just yet. If you are concerned about Legion CiD, I wouldn't be. They have been pretty consistent in Mk3 with nerfing or ignoring them. I have zero faith that any of Legion's problems will be addressed in CiD.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 2, 2018 15:09:18 GMT
I understand the frustration at Gatorman Posse being unattractive outside of Blindwater, but maybe it reflects a changing attitude of PP towards Mercs and Minions as a whole.
Maybe they are now seen as primarily stand alone fully fledged factions, and the fact they will work for certain other factions is more of a side-note. Now that themes are the primary way to play and they most commonly allow a single solos and/or unit, the days of other factions taking armies with large numbers of mercs/minions is gone, and as long as there a few merc/minion solos or units that are appealing to other factions, it does not matter that the vast majority of the merc/minion catalougue will never be taken outside of dedicated merc/minion armies.
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Post by Azuresun on Jan 2, 2018 15:29:08 GMT
But by all means, please set up as many tests as you can. I don't want bonkers stuff coming out of CiD even if I think there is far more powerful stuff out there. We need more out-of-faction perspective to keep things going in the right direction... But don't you dare hate on Golab's abilities. Points, fine. But I want that Pow 14 Finisher and Sprint animus! One change I'd like to see (though I've no idea if it's practical) would be if CID battle reports were expected to contain both players' opinions on the things being tested.
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