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Post by jpgreat1 on Dec 21, 2017 21:22:14 GMT
As I posted in the Cygnar forum
Between the announcement of next year's CID and seeing that Cryx got a total of 6 themes, I began wondering when will other faction's get there final 1 to 2 themes to catch up. When that happens I am curious to know (and hear what other people think) what those themes will be and what benefits will be available to them.
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Post by squallish on Dec 22, 2017 1:40:19 GMT
Ideally we would get these themes or something like it.
House Vyre Alliance:
Non-Shyeel Warcasters, No Vyros House Vyre models, units, and Battle Engines Arcanist Mechanics Arcanist Units Nyss models and units
Arcanist units become house Vyre Units instead of Shyeel in this theme. For every 25 pts of Vyre or Nyss models, gain 1 small or medium based solo for free. For every 20 pts of units in this army, 1 Heavy Warjack or Battle Engine gains Advance Move. For every 2 light warjacks in this army, 1 unit gains Ambush.
Fury of the Retribution:
All warcasters 1 Fane Knight Solo 1 Mage Hunter Unit 1 Dawnguard Unit 1 House Shyeel Unit 1 Houseguard or Stormfall Unit 1 Nyss Unit 1 Mage Hunter Solo 1 Dawnguard Solo 1 House Shyeel Solo 1 Houseguard or Stormfall Solo 1 Nyss Solo
For every 20pts of units in this army, gain 1 small or medium based solo for free. Warjacks gain Gang Fighter (Retribution Warrior Model). Solos gain Dodge.
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Post by elladan52 on Dec 22, 2017 13:01:48 GMT
Ideally we get a Vyre theme that Vyros is allowed in.
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Post by Kallas on Dec 22, 2017 14:17:42 GMT
Ideally we get a Vyre theme that Vyros is allowed in. Considering that: he tried to diddle Ossyan out of the credit for Nyssor's recovery; Nyarr was a major opponent of Vyre during the War of the Houses, which wasn't actually all that long ago; and that Vyros has a significant enmity for Ghyrrshyld, who took his eye, was a freaking vampire elf, and did some super dodgy stuff (again, even though he's 'Forgiven', it wasn't that long ago); all of that makes it likely that Vyros wouldn't be in the Vyre theme. That said, I can't, off the top my head, think of any non-Merc themes that specifically exclude a Warcaster (and even Merc ones are inclusive of specific ones, rather than exclusive).
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Post by jisidro on Dec 22, 2017 14:57:14 GMT
Circle themes that only allow living warbeasts exclude Bradigus without calling it out.
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Post by Kallas on Dec 22, 2017 15:30:52 GMT
Circle themes that only allow living warbeasts exclude Bradigus without calling it out. True, although that's due to Bradigus being a stone-hugging hippy 😁
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Dec 22, 2017 17:28:32 GMT
Ideally we would get these themes or something like it. House Vyre Alliance:Non-Shyeel Warcasters, No Vyros House Vyre models, units, and Battle Engines Arcanist Mechanics Arcanist Units Nyss models and units Arcanist units become house Vyre Units instead of Shyeel in this theme. For every 25 pts of Vyre or Nyss models, gain 1 small or medium based solo for free. For every 20 pts of units in this army, 1 Heavy Warjack or Battle Engine gains Advance Move. For every 2 light warjacks in this army, 1 unit gains Ambush. In all likelyhood we'll see a wave of new Vyre releases alongside the theme force, probably including Vyre's own take on Arcanists. I think it's possible Nyss will be included since it makes sense fluff-wise and it leaves room for Vyre to stay as specialists without making the theme Forges But It's Vyre Now. I doubt it will specifically call out casters, but it could end up saying non-Shyeel or Non-Dawnguard. Ossyan seems like he wants people to like Vyre again and he's courting a scion of house Shyeel so I would bet it's inclusive. Personally I'm not a fan of those benefits, trying to use them is going to contort lists all over the place. More likely I think would be something like Winter Guard Command where it's just "For every X unit a warjack gets Advance Move". I could also see swapping one of them for free Turn 1 upkeeps or maaaybe free upkeeps on Vyre models (the latter is probably way too strong but I love it in Northkin). Fury of the Retribution:All warcasters 1 Fane Knight Solo 1 Mage Hunter Unit 1 Dawnguard Unit 1 House Shyeel Unit 1 Houseguard or Stormfall Unit 1 Nyss Unit 1 Mage Hunter Solo 1 Dawnguard Solo 1 House Shyeel Solo 1 Houseguard or Stormfall Solo 1 Nyss Solo For every 20pts of units in this army, gain 1 small or medium based solo for free. Warjacks gain Gang Fighter (Retribution Warrior Model). Solos gain Dodge. I don't understand this one. Is this supposed to be like Irregulars? It seems...not thematic to me. I think we'll see a Mage Hunter one, a Vyre one, a Houseguard one, maybe Nyss if they aren't part of Vyre. What I'm really not sure about are the other military houses; most of them sound way too specialized to have a theme force to themselves so maybe we'll see a "Great Houses" theme that allows Ellowuyr swordsmen, Issyen cavalry, the ones that invented Stormfalls, and the other one that I don't remember to all play in the same sandbox. That would buy them like 4-5 years of releases so who knows where we'll be by then.
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Post by squallish on Dec 22, 2017 19:10:48 GMT
Benefits could be literally anything.. just my initial thoughts. #s can always be tweaked.
Yeah, the second theme is basically Ret Irregulars. Many people miss running mixed units and this lets you do this without spamming.. so you can run MHSF with a Artificer again, etc.. Theme-wise it is when the houses need to unite for a larger-scale battle.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Dec 22, 2017 19:24:09 GMT
That fair, and on re-reading my post I may have come off as more dismissive than I intended. I think the Vyre+Nyss alignment definitely has merit in the fluff and would be a really interesting way to differentiate Vyre from Shyeel from a playstyle perspective. What is hard to guess about future theme forces at this point is what sort of new model volume is going to accompany them, which is why I'm not sure where some of the distant ones are going to land.
For example, Trenchers got a new 10-man unit, a new 3-man unit, a 2-man unit, a CA, a handful of new solos, a structure, and a caster, but they already had two units going in. How is PP going to handle expanding on something like Ellowuyr that has a single unit to it's name? Are we going to see a single CID with 3 or more other Ellowuyr units (though how they'll change up "The house with the best swordsmen" enough to make multiple units I don't know) or are they gonna merge them with another set of releases, like say Issyen cavalry? Whats going to happen to Defenders when Ryssovass and Swordsmen have a more fleshed-out home, will they be errata'd out or will Defenders of Ios just continue to be a weird grab-bag? If Nyss don't end up with Vyre will Vyre get a 10-man unit of something or will it just be a second jack theme (though who knows, maybe PP doesn't consider Forges a jack theme).
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Post by Tom_Bombadil_ on Dec 22, 2017 20:11:17 GMT
House Vyre Alliance:Non-Shyeel Warcasters, No Vyros House Vyre models, units, and Battle Engines Arcanist Mechanics Arcanist Units Nyss models and units I personally really think we will see a Vyre/Nyss theme. It makes a lot of sense thematically and they complement each other to make a nice full roster. I do doubt that we will be allowed to have Shyeel Arcanists in the theme but I could see us getting another Vyre unit/solo that's similar. Do we know anything about the mechanics that operate the AFG?
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Dec 27, 2017 21:54:30 GMT
I've been playing with the idea that, because of the apparent design philosophy of Ret being a combined arms faction needing cooperation amongst its various sub factions, our themes (owing to a general lack of Mercs available to us and Defenders of Ios being inclusive hence its exclusion here) can be presently be made more acceptable to whiners like me by replacing 'Mercenary' with 'Retribution not included in above list' in the generic Mercenary inclusion "benefit", except Defenders, of course...
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Post by mikethefish on Dec 28, 2017 2:23:31 GMT
Benefits could be literally anything.. just my initial thoughts. #s can always be tweaked. Yeah, the second theme is basically Ret Irregulars. Many people miss running mixed units and this lets you do this without spamming.. so you can run MHSF with a Artificer again, etc.. Theme-wise it is when the houses need to unite for a larger-scale battle. Irregulars is a one-off. Nobody else is getting Irregulars, and folks need to make their peace with that. I would dearly love for all the multi-faction envy posts to go away, already.
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dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on Dec 28, 2017 7:33:51 GMT
I thought it was hinted that the Nyss weren't all that happy about House Vyre (for one, think of all the trouble Goreshade caused. Ghyrrshyld may be Forgiven but has hardly been Forgotten).
With the amount of new releases for, say, Cygnar Trenchers it seems possible that we will get enough new Vyre or Nyss models to make two themes (eventually).
If we are just wishing, I want the equivalent of Forges for Vyre and another theme which allows me to take Mage Hunter units without having a full Mage Hunter army (possibly by including "one faction unit/solo" like they are currently doing with Mercs).
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germanicus
Junior Strategist
No jokes round ear...
Posts: 358
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Post by germanicus on Dec 28, 2017 10:21:21 GMT
With the amount of new releases for, say, Cygnar Trenchers it seems possible that we will get enough new Vyre or Nyss models to make two themes (eventually). I like homebrew, just getting that out there for those who want to ignore the following... We can have an entirely Nyss theme, I think (proviso being below non-listed FF element inclusion benefit), but with a lower points barrier for free models based purely on Nyss model content... Other benefits, under the basis the battle is taking place just as a snowstorm is lifting: FF gain Immunity Cold and no Stationary; light Myrmidons and one solo per light Myrmidon gain Snow Wreathed; and enemy models have limited LOS during first round. Go me for dreaming up OP BS! -_- You mean revise the Shadows theme for flexibility as opposed to a new theme entirely... Like I mentioned, I'm inclined to go the path of amending the Merc inclusion benefit to an FF non-listed inclusion, Ret Partisans permitted as well. It hearkens back to original faction design intent, opens up our theme flexibility and provides us with the same level of options as the rest of the game's non limited release factions' themes.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Dec 29, 2017 13:39:44 GMT
I wish we could just get a jack theme that allowed all of our jacks. Ret is the only faction that keeps getting themes that only allow half of our jack stable (MKII it felt like every other caster's theme force only allowed Shyeel). Now that Ghyrrshyld is a religious icon, Ossyan is courting a Shyeel prodigy, and they've had to deal with a massive Skorne invasion it's just weird for them to still be that picky. From a gameplay perspective it just sucks having our five best jacks (IMO Banshee, Harpy, Phoenix, Griffon, Siren) constantly split up for no apparent reason. Plenty of casters would be happy to run a jack-heavy force that allows mixed-arms and I really don't see how it could be OP in any way.
I'm hoping that Forges of War, like Heavy Metal, isn't actually considered a "jack theme" by PP and will eventually be tweaked into just a Shyeel theme when we get more Shyeel models and a true jack theme that allows all chassis will be introduced. Until then I'm stuck building jack lists in Legions I guess because at least +2" deployment is something.
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