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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 1, 2018 1:49:34 GMT
You're talking about buffing one or two units at a time versus your entire army. War Spears are 5 units at 13 power. With UA that's 15 on prey. With the right caster +2 str buff that's 17 power. On feat turn your bloodtrackers would be power 13 PLUS weapon master, and double the amount of war Spears no UA needed. Your units of 4-6 ravager a can hit for 15 power multiple times depending on corpse tokens. With the ability to boost said attacks too. That's your infantry hitting multiple times at warbeast damage. Signs and portents is completely dice based. Where as this would be a consistent buff. And you can't just disregard armor on a 5 health tough unit. And again, this assumes the ravager isn't touched in the cid. If we get brutal charge back like many want, you're 17 damage on the charge. Add in the croc pot for free attacks and your units will slaughter. All this on top of the dangerous damage our beasts would be doing too. Neither of the 2 casters with signs and portents has the beast ability we do. The khador caster spending half+ his focus on signs a turn is doing nothing with the slow moving khador jacks. And the gator man caster has nothing that moves as fast/as well and hits as hard as we do. All this is ignoring the +2 mat carnage brings too. You can try to sell it come cid time but I highly doubt anyone buys it. Okay, so... Most lists don't need to bring more than 2-3 units. It's rare that more than 2 units are in a position to effectively use melee buffs in a relevant way on a given turn. Warspears are 19 under the B aura. They're also relatively cheap at 15 points. Really? Rockets on Butcher1 feat turn are okay, but Ravagers at PS 15/maybe 17 aren't? Ravagers are only getting extra attacks into infantry (specifically, living or undead infantry, which matters into COC and Skorne). Infantry which they already massacre at P+S 13. Even if they have corpses saved up, AND got brutal charge in CID, they'd only be hitting at P+S 17 on the charge attack. Any bought attacks would be P+S 15. Terrifying, I'm sure. Dude, signs and portents doesn't care about speed. Rockets are Speed 6, Range 14, POW 12 brutal damage. That's better, longer ranged output than anything our infantry bring to the faction. Even in minions, Posse are as fast as Tharn (faster on the charge against living warriors) and hit just as hard. Croak raiders can be P+S 11 S+P weaponmasters with the same threat range as Bloodtrackers into their prey target.
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Post by macdaddy on Feb 1, 2018 2:22:33 GMT
I think after seeing anamag personally swing Pow by +4 and apply Grevious wounds, a FFM Kromac 2 Feat would be very acceptable. Especially if Our Units Pow values don’t change much.
Carnage in a 14” Control is already great. Would love to see Bug Mac become more convinced arms.
Or even just make him Tankier like they did with thags2. Right now our “monster” caster is looking kind of lackluster compared to the barns 2’s and Borka 2’s
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Post by paradox on Feb 1, 2018 2:38:49 GMT
I think after seeing anamag personally swing Pow by +4 and apply Grevious wounds, a FFM Kromac 2 Feat would be very acceptable. Especially if Our Units Pow values don’t change much. Carnage in a 14” Control is already great. Would love to see Bug Mac become more convinced arms. Or even just make him Tankier like they did with thags2. Right now our “monster” caster is looking kind of lackluster compared to the barns 2’s and Borka 2’s Cannibal Magic on Kromac2? It'd be super nutty, what with the boilmaster now and all.
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Post by macdaddy on Feb 1, 2018 3:25:38 GMT
paradox lol that would be so dumb I’d have to dig an in ground pool to hold all the salty tears of non circle players I would prefer he gain unyielding or something where he gains a point Of arm for each corpse on him. Def 14 Arm 21 (23 on Feat Turn or 25 on Feat with spiny growth) seems super legit.
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Post by forthehorde on Feb 1, 2018 4:19:31 GMT
Okay, so... Most lists don't need to bring more than 2-3 units. It's rare that more than 2 units are in a position to effectively use melee buffs in a relevant way on a given turn. Warspears are 19 under the B aura. They're also relatively cheap at 15 points. Really? Rockets on Butcher1 feat turn are okay, but Ravagers at PS 15/maybe 17 aren't? Ravagers are only getting extra attacks into infantry (specifically, living or undead infantry, which matters into COC and Skorne). Infantry which they already massacre at P+S 13. Even if they have corpses saved up, AND got brutal charge in CID, they'd only be hitting at P+S 17 on the charge attack. Any bought attacks would be P+S 15. Terrifying, I'm sure. Dude, signs and portents doesn't care about speed. Rockets are Speed 6, Range 14, POW 12 brutal damage. That's better, longer ranged output than anything our infantry bring to the faction. Even in minions, Posse are as fast as Tharn (faster on the charge against living warriors) and hit just as hard. Croak raiders can be P+S 11 S+P weaponmasters with the same threat range as Bloodtrackers into their prey target. You would only take 3 units. 2 melee. one ranged. Your bloodtrackers could prey a heavy down on feat turn by themselves. No need to have them fighting the infantry. Warspears under the Blight aura would be 15 points without UA. So 20 points. You don't get the prey bonus for free. Then you're leashing them to a speed 4 warbeast, can't walk out passed 5" or you lose your bonus. Pretty well negates the extra threat they'd gain from assault. And they throw at rat 5. Not hitting a def 14 warbeast anytime soon, or anything concealed/covered. 26 damage a model IF they hit. Speaking of low rats. Rockets. First off, you can take 3 a unit. So yeah you're doing a lot of damage, but only 3 times. And you need to buy the solo to boost their rat so they can actually hit anything def 13+. So 10 for the unit, 4 for the solo, 6 for the rocketeers. Another 20 pts for 33 damage on feat turn. IF all their attacks hit. You also assume that nobodies in melee and you can get LOS. Again anything concealed or covered is pretty well un-hittable. And if you're using sign and ports you aren't butcher feating, which drops their damage considerably, and leaves it all up to the dice. Plus you're spending 4 focus, so very few options outside of that spell. I can do the same thing with SFA in Retribution on Ossyan feat turn and with fortune to help hit. Trust me you miss enough that the important kill generally doesn't come when you want it to. Posse aren't as fast as Tharn. Speed 5 vs 6. Yes effectively 7 on the charge against living models, but no vengeance for the free 3" move, that's where the armor from feat becomes more important. Much more likely to live and vengeance. They also don't have pathfinder. Caster can give them ghostly, but that's 6 of 7 fury gone in 2 spells. They also have nothing to buy extra attacks or boost. They have 1 lower mat, so hitting def 14 again is a problem, and lower defense so being shoot isn't. I'd say a posse with signs on it is as good as our ravagers are base for the same price and less models. Croaks require a model to act before they get their weapon master. So against one target, you're down to 9 attacks. And every extra target after that requires an extra model. Effectively maxing you out at 5 targets. Blood Trackers have no such limitations. 21 damage per model up to 9 models against one target. Barely cracks heavy armor. Blood Trackers on feat turn, 9+prey(2)+2 for str=13 plus weapon master. Puts them 2 up on the croakers and a model extra. Croakers also lack stealth. So a unit of trackers attacking an armor 20 heavy deals on average 30 damage on feat turn. Croakers deal 9-27 depending on how signs roll. Both would be shooting at about Rat 8 with prey and signs. Prey guaranteed, signs depending on dice roll. You're acting like power 17 and power 15 isn't good. You get 6 ravagers. If each only has 1 corpse token on them, which is easily doable with pot and theme, you're charging for 27 and attacking a second time for 22. That's on 16 points of Ravagers. If you have the tokens to boost your second attack, it's 27 27. On an armor 20 heavy, that 27 and 22 per 6 ravagers averages out for 54 damage. You've dropped a gargantuan with an infantry unit. AND the unit hits at Mat 7 naturally, Mat 9 with carnage. Obviously other casters buffs/debuffs would come into play so I doubt you'd ACTUALLY drop that garg, but it's still impressive numbers. Now, if that's a single buff given to ONE of these units by a caster, cool. It was paid for, they did their job and that's all fine and dandy. But giving your Bloodtrackers that 23 damage a hit, WHILE giving your Ravagers (one or one and half units) that 27-22 per ravager, and all the while your warbeasts are tearing it up at their usual high damage. You can't tell me you don't taste the tears just from thinking about it. Everyone of these units has natural pathfinder, so there's no slowing or stopping them there, and all of them have high mats/rats. Aside from MASSIVE armor skew, anything you reach is pretty well dead. But I am curious as to how it would actual turn out. Theory crafting is what it is. Feel free to play test it and shoot us a battle report. I'd be interested to see how it turned out.
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Post by jisidro on Feb 1, 2018 11:43:15 GMT
... I really don't think they will stack even more on this guy. He is stupidly hard and hard-hitting already. He just does nothing for Tharn outside of Carnage. But I think PP kinda meant him that way. Maybe Kromac1 could be more tharn-centric? I just feel they really want Kromac2 to be a beast-focused warlock. Stupidly Hard was just redefined on thagrosh2 that got +2 ARM, got the ARM buff to affect himself, makes a transfer target when hit and now has Sac pawn to it. As to Hard hitting, that he is but on a Large base which means he is a Cav caster without cav rules and SPD. Just like Bradigus, Just like Terminus, Just like Thagrosh2. I feel he needs/wants a Pureblood and a Stalker to give him Blessed as needed and sprint because he needs it... Can he still afford Ghetorix? He'll never gain canibal magic but I'd like the canibal human/living sacrificing faction to get some sort of blood boon/Spell ability... I feel his feat going to FFM would open him up, but a tweak to his spell list could do the trick. I'd just like one of the Tharn kings to use Tharns well.
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Post by wolfchild on Feb 1, 2018 16:04:05 GMT
... I really don't think they will stack even more on this guy. He is stupidly hard and hard-hitting already. He just does nothing for Tharn outside of Carnage. But I think PP kinda meant him that way. Maybe Kromac1 could be more tharn-centric? I just feel they really want Kromac2 to be a beast-focused warlock. Stupidly Hard was just redefined on thagrosh2 that got +2 ARM, got the ARM buff to affect himself, makes a transfer target when hit and now has Sac pawn to it. As to Hard hitting, that he is but on a Large base which means he is a Cav caster without cav rules and SPD. Just like Bradigus, Just like Terminus, Just like Thagrosh2. I feel he needs/wants a Pureblood and a Stalker to give him Blessed as needed and sprint because he needs it... Can he still afford Ghetorix? He'll never gain canibal magic but I'd like the canibal human/living sacrificing faction to get some sort of blood boon/Spell ability... I feel his feat going to FFM would open him up, but a tweak to his spell list could do the trick. I'd just like one of the Tharn kings to use Tharns well. They should both be able to run Tharn, but I agree that making Kro2’s Feat FFM would be too much. Swapping out a spell on each and/or an ability that buffs nearby Tharn would work well. If it wasn’t for White Mane giving Ravagers +1 MAT u could well give Kromac (an inspirational leader) the same or a different area buff to Ravagers/Tharn. Maybe switch it up between Kro1 and Kro2.
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Post by paradox on Feb 1, 2018 16:37:38 GMT
paradox lol that would be so dumb I’d have to dig an in ground pool to hold all the salty tears of non circle players I would prefer he gain unyielding or something where he gains a point Of arm for each corpse on him. Def 14 Arm 21 (23 on Feat Turn or 25 on Feat with spiny growth) seems super legit. So maybe give Kromac2 Unyielding, and Elite Cadre Unyielding? Do you go full out for Tharn on EC? Or narrow it to ravagers?
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Post by kuririnad on Feb 1, 2018 16:39:14 GMT
First of all, I would play Kromac1 if all he had was warpath. That is the type of spell circle needs to get back to.
I definitely think Kromac1 theming more combined arms and 2 going beast heavy is fine. Maybe have either an elite cadre(tharn) or something similar to Kaya's pack Hunter that gives tharn +2 str or damage.
I also reeeeeeeally want the ravagers ca to provide berserk and overtake. Murder some infantry, fill up on corpses, and then buy/boost into warjacks.
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Post by jisidro on Feb 1, 2018 16:39:47 GMT
Hang on! I think the feat going FFM would be perfectly fine! I said that perhaps a second good troop affecting spell is enough to make him desirable with troops...
I don't think it would break wolds because, somehow, the feat is LIVING only... Troops in Circle max out at ARM 16/18 in melee so you get a resilient unit (skinwalkers) for one turn but Circle has quite a few ARM buffs and they aren't exactly... desirable.
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Post by paradox on Feb 1, 2018 17:35:19 GMT
... I really don't think they will stack even more on this guy. He is stupidly hard and hard-hitting already. He just does nothing for Tharn outside of Carnage. But I think PP kinda meant him that way. Maybe Kromac1 could be more tharn-centric? I just feel they really want Kromac2 to be a beast-focused warlock. Stupidly Hard was just redefined on thagrosh2 that got +2 ARM, got the ARM buff to affect himself, makes a transfer target when hit and now has Sac pawn to it. As to Hard hitting, that he is but on a Large base which means he is a Cav caster without cav rules and SPD. Just like Bradigus, Just like Terminus, Just like Thagrosh2. I feel he needs/wants a Pureblood and a Stalker to give him Blessed as needed and sprint because he needs it... Can he still afford Ghetorix? He'll never gain canibal magic but I'd like the canibal human/living sacrificing faction to get some sort of blood boon/Spell ability... I feel his feat going to FFM would open him up, but a tweak to his spell list could do the trick. I'd just like one of the Tharn kings to use Tharns well. Per my list shared above, I definitely feel you can play him with Gheto and a stalker. Im not convinced he NEEDS a pureblood. With his feat he swings a MAT10 PS19 with up to 7 fury and 3 hearts. And he ramps up his BG too. He can power through upkeeps. And really, Ive played a similar list with just Gheto as a heavy. Feat and Spiny Growth are usually enough to let Kromac tank out what he needs to.
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Post by streetpizza on Feb 1, 2018 19:19:30 GMT
You're talking about buffing one or two units at a time versus your entire army. War Spears are 5 units at 13 power. With UA that's 15 on prey. With the right caster +2 str buff that's 17 power. On feat turn your bloodtrackers would be power 13 PLUS weapon master, and double the amount of war Spears no UA needed. Your units of 4-6 ravager a can hit for 15 power multiple times depending on corpse tokens. With the ability to boost said attacks too. That's your infantry hitting multiple times at warbeast damage. Signs and portents is completely dice based. Where as this would be a consistent buff. And you can't just disregard armor on a 5 health tough unit. And again, this assumes the ravager isn't touched in the cid. If we get brutal charge back like many want, you're 17 damage on the charge. Add in the croc pot for free attacks and your units will slaughter. All this on top of the dangerous damage our beasts would be doing too. Neither of the 2 casters with signs and portents has the beast ability we do. The khador caster spending half+ his focus on signs a turn is doing nothing with the slow moving khador jacks. And the gator man caster has nothing that moves as fast/as well and hits as hard as we do. All this is ignoring the +2 mat carnage brings too. You can try to sell it come cid time but I highly doubt anyone buys it. Looks at Denny1's feat reducing armor and def on all enemy models (thus buffing even non FFMs) while also sporting crippling grasp and parasite, looks at current proposal for K2. Yep ... you're just wrong Mr.Horde. Also keep in mind Khador has those forge guys for power booster now. Vlad can S&P and run native P+S19 jacks just fine thanks. Also the pot only gives corpes to one model per turn and moves at speed 5. That's hardly going to buff a unit of ravagers into broken territory now is it? Feats are supposed to be good. Let this one have an impact and K2 will actually start to see play.
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Post by forthehorde on Feb 1, 2018 23:04:44 GMT
Looks at Denny1's feat reducing armor and def on all enemy models (thus buffing even non FFMs) while also sporting crippling grasp and parasite, looks at current proposal for K2. Yep ... you're just wrong Mr.Horde. Also keep in mind Khador has those forge guys for power booster now. Vlad can S&P and run native P+S19 jacks just fine thanks. Also the pot only gives corpes to one model per turn and moves at speed 5. That's hardly going to buff a unit of ravagers into broken territory now is it? Feats are supposed to be good. Let this one have an impact and K2 will actually start to see play. So you feel Kromac should be able to buff as well as the ultimate debuffer? Silly comparison. You're comparing a squishy support caster to kromac. To feat denny1 is putting herself in a good position to get assassinated. She also depends hard on arc-nodes to debuff, and can only debuff 2 targets max. One target the first time you get into range. Which is 8". Shes also spending 6 of 7 focus each time she changes targets. Which means her jacks are doing very little. Secondly ghost fleet base is trash compared to ravagers. After all her buffs are on they're hitting ONCE for the same as you want ravagers to hit feat turn charge. Didn't say the pot pushes them into broken. The pot allows them to make second attacks. At the very least you'll get 2 turns out of it for 2-6 tokens. Then add in your free tokens on theme. You'll easily be able to guarantee your ravagers are attacking 12 times on feat turn. Even its the same 2 ravagers buying extra attacks.And your ravager can change targets and keep doing this damage. Ghost fleet can't. You guys keep comparing feat buffs in armies that only attack once a turn. Khador heavier at native 19 aren't that big of a deal. We run warpwolfs at native 17 that out range and out attack the juggernaught. Throw primal on it and you've got 6 attacks at 19 at 10" pathfinder threat range and one attack at 18. Makes 4 Max attacks at 19 and one at 15 look like garbage no? Even with s&p you're talking 41 damage on the feral versus 36 if signs gives +2 damage on every roll. And that's not counting charge dice for the feral who out threats the khador vastly. And then throw in kromas feat, and there isn't a war jack or beast who stands a chance. And you want our infantry to do the same. If you don't think str+2 and mat+2 and arm +2 on some of the hardest hitting heavier in the game is impactful then I don't know what is. Kromacs negatives are clearly in his spell list. Where he does very little to deliver said beasts. Which is why I suggested putting war path or mobility on him for his buff. He definitely needs something, I just think his feat going ffm is too much. But again. Play test it. Let me know how it goes and what your opponent thought. If you're going to offer it up in the cid the data can only help.
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Post by bloodhawk on Feb 1, 2018 23:24:01 GMT
I am continually surprised by the sentiment that Hordes can't have good things (this is meant to be hyperbolic, but it seems to be somewhat truthful). Warmachine has plenty of similar affects in factions with far superior infantry to Circle. We can only hope that the CID allows us to test things like this to see where it puts us. I just detest the idea that everything has to be "perfectly on curve balanced". That doesn't make an interesting game, and is only possible in a perfect world. Some things need to be slightly above the curve by definition, in order to have a curve you have to have things above, below, etc. I think Tharn are pretty darn close to being quite good, and with a few tweaks to existing units and casters who actually support them properly, we could be looking at a great list.
Side note, it would be wonderful for some Circle infantry to do something other than kill enemy infantry. Ravagers with powerful Charge would be PS15 on the charge, with a potential for PS17 while in Mac2's "updated" feat. Think of Bane Warriors, they are similarly priced and without buffs end up being effectively PS 14 to 19. With any sort of buff they go to 16 to 21 or higher. That unit is slower than Ravagers, but they have Dark Host, Coven, and other effective ways to deliver their models that we don't. Personally, if I could get one thing from the CID that is tharn related it would be that Ravagers can be a reliable anti armour infantry option.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 1, 2018 23:45:47 GMT
Looks at Denny1's feat reducing armor and def on all enemy models (thus buffing even non FFMs) while also sporting crippling grasp and parasite, looks at current proposal for K2. Yep ... you're just wrong Mr.Horde. Also keep in mind Khador has those forge guys for power booster now. Vlad can S&P and run native P+S19 jacks just fine thanks. Also the pot only gives corpes to one model per turn and moves at speed 5. That's hardly going to buff a unit of ravagers into broken territory now is it? Feats are supposed to be good. Let this one have an impact and K2 will actually start to see play. So you feel Kromac should be able to buff as well as the ultimate debuffer? Silly comparison. You're comparing a squishy support caster to kromac. To feat denny1 is putting herself in a good position to get assassinated. She also depends hard on arc-nodes to debuff, and can only debuff 2 targets max. One target the first time you get into range. Which is 8". Shes also spending 6 of 7 focus each time she changes targets. Which means her jacks are doing very little. Secondly ghost fleet base is trash compared to ravagers. After all her buffs are on they're hitting ONCE for the same as you want ravagers to hit feat turn charge. Didn't say the pot pushes them into broken. The pot allows them to make second attacks. At the very least you'll get 2 turns out of it for 2-6 tokens. Then add in your free tokens on theme. You'll easily be able to guarantee your ravagers are attacking 12 times on feat turn. Even its the same 2 ravagers buying extra attacks.And your ravager can change targets and keep doing this damage. Ghost fleet can't. You guys keep comparing feat buffs in armies that only attack once a turn. Khador heavier at native 19 aren't that big of a deal. We run warpwolfs at native 17 that out range and out attack the juggernaught. Throw primal on it and you've got 6 attacks at 19 at 10" pathfinder threat range and one attack at 18. Makes 4 Max attacks at 19 and one at 15 look like garbage no? Even with s&p you're talking 41 damage on the feral versus 36 if signs gives +2 damage on every roll. And that's not counting charge dice for the feral who out threats the khador vastly. And then throw in kromas feat, and there isn't a war jack or beast who stands a chance. And you want our infantry to do the same. If you don't think str+2 and mat+2 and arm +2 on some of the hardest hitting heavier in the game is impactful then I don't know what is. Kromacs negatives are clearly in his spell list. Where he does very little to deliver said beasts. Which is why I suggested putting war path or mobility on him for his buff. He definitely needs something, I just think his feat going ffm is too much. But again. Play test it. Let me know how it goes and what your opponent thought. If you're going to offer it up in the cid the data can only help. Ghost fleet don't die. That's the key, and what makes me question if you've even played into it. They come back turn after turn, and enjoy the insane swings Denny can pull every turn, with a crazy swing on Feat turn (up to 7 points of armor). That's why they're not great in terms of base stats. Replace GF with Banes, or Satyxis, or hell, that janky 5 leviathan list, and they're hitting waaay harder than ravagers ever could. Also, are..seriously comparing the power level of a feat that gives +2 strength and Armor, to a feat that reduces every relevant stat by 2? On top of CG? and parasite? Kromac2 would not even remotely be 'as good of a buffer as Denny1 is a debuffer' in the proposed hypothetical. Do you think Rasheth's feat is OP? It's -2 Arm, -2 Def, -2 strength...on a larger control area, so functionally very similar area to Kromac2's feat. It works on guns (Derp turtles!), it drops defense, and performs a very similar role to giving +2 Arm to FF models. Rasheth's not a combat presence, but his spell list is far superior to Kromac's, and he's similarly survivable. There are literally a dozen plus feats that give a far superior swing than the proposed Kromac2 feat - leaving aside the fact that number swing feats are most often not the most powerful feats in the game - on casters with much better spell lists. I can assure you, this would not even remotely break the game. It might make Kromac2 a presence in the meta, which is a damn good thing.
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