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Post by paradox on Jan 21, 2018 15:50:48 GMT
The changes to warmongers are promising. 8/13 would be a good price point for ravagers. Eh... I would prefer them get buffed and go to 10/15. Give them brutal charge back inherently and I think they would be great! Warmongers don't have native pathfinder, only have a unique character UA. berserk which is arguably worse in most cases than heart eater, don't have treewalker, and are 1 less speed. Ravagers are only a buff away from being great. Now blood pack, those guys could get a nice points drop to 8/13 Por que no los dos?
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jan 31, 2018 19:53:00 GMT
I have very mixed feelings about the Tharn CID, having seen the relatively small size of the Legion CID. On the one hand, I've been looking forward to Circle getting a CID for a very long time, on the other...I'm concerned that we'll see a tiny update that won't make a significant dent in our internal balance.
That being said, I'm hoping to see the following changes/additions to casters, in relative order of priority:
Iona the Unseen: I hope she does something to support Tharn...a real infantry support warlock would be nice. Delivery + a damage buff would be the absolute minimum I'd hope to see, and ideally I'd like to see her have some kind of 'blood magic' special rules. Cannibal magic would be way to strong on a caster, but the ability to spend corpses to turn on some kind of aura, blood boon, attack types...I can think of lots of ways to make her interesting.
Kromac2: I love the guy's model, but he feels very lackluster. He doesn't really do anything particularly unique, even in Circle. I would love to see the following changes: - Something that makes him more of a beast in combat. Along the lines of what we're seeing with Thags2, Barny2, etc. - Feat goes to either 'models' or just 'living models'. Tharn love armor buffs, damage buffs, and Carnage...and it would be damn nice for the Tharn King to want to run Tharn
Morvahna1: Currently her biggest issues are A) getting incidentally hated out of the meta by RFP tech and B) Regrowth is a bad upkeep for the (huge) cost. I suggest: - Regrowth requires recurred models to sacrifice movement OR action. prevents revenant pirate shenanigans, but allows for you to get actual use out of the spell. -
Morvahna2: A victim of the dreaded 'triple nerf and then nerf it again to be safe' style of balance, Morvahna2's tricks just...no longer do anything particularly compelling as opposed to other casters. She may be revitalized by the Tharn theme getting better, but I think she still needs work: - Swap Carnivore for a spell that does not RFP, or that RFPs in a manner that is synergistic with heart eater. - Swap Censure for Repudiate - Consider allowing her to return Solos with the feat. This would bring back some of Morv2's old tricks, without putting her as far above the curve as she was in Mk2.
Wishlist - Kaya1: She's no longer a battlebox caster, and it's about time PP took a serious look at this caster, who has been decidedly meh, and competitively unseen, since the start of Mk2. I think that she should gain: - Stealth (allows her to put occultation on something else) - Spirit Door to cost 2 - Add the following to her feat: Warbeasts in her battlegroup do not frenzy next turn.
These changes will allow her to play a more reliable hit and run game. The change to the feat lets her mitigate primal, something no other caster in Circle can do. Still a warlock that demands finesse, as she still lacks a damage buff, (though the feat lets her hand out a LOT of primal) but I think this would give her more of a niche.
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Post by paradox on Jan 31, 2018 22:56:09 GMT
Kromac2: I love the guy's model, but he feels very lackluster. He doesn't really do anything particularly unique, even in Circle. I would love to see the following changes: - Something that makes him more of a beast in combat. Along the lines of what we're seeing with Thags2, Barny2, etc. - Feat goes to either 'models' or just 'living models'. Tharn love armor buffs, damage buffs, and Carnage...and it would be damn nice for the Tharn King to want to run Tharn Interesting. I mean, he's MAT8 PS17GW with SPD6 PF and 2" Reach. And he's 14/18 with 19 life. So he's already pretty "beasty" in combat. Add to that his ability to hold hearts and he's got essentially 10 fury in terms of combat effectiveness. That's also pretty beasty, especially if he happens to be crushing dudes and replenishing hearts as he goes. At that point, it's just dumb the damage he can do. Taken with Gheto (and lets be honest, you do) he has access to Spiny Growth, so hes basically 14/20 with SG damage vs jacks/beasts. On feat, he can easily be 14/22, effective MAT10 and PS19, with up to 10 fury to fight with. I really don't think they will stack even more on this guy. He is stupidly hard and hard-hitting already. He just does nothing for Tharn outside of Carnage. But I think PP kinda meant him that way. Maybe Kromac1 could be more tharn-centric? I just feel they really want Kromac2 to be a beast-focused warlock.
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Post by forthehorde on Jan 31, 2018 23:14:39 GMT
Kromac2: I love the guy's model, but he feels very lackluster. He doesn't really do anything particularly unique, even in Circle. I would love to see the following changes: - Something that makes him more of a beast in combat. Along the lines of what we're seeing with Thags2, Barny2, etc. - Feat goes to either 'models' or just 'living models'. Tharn love armor buffs, damage buffs, and Carnage...and it would be damn nice for the Tharn King to want to run Tharn Interesting. I mean, he's MAT8 PS17GW with SPD6 PF and 2" Reach. And he's 14/18 with 19 life. So he's already pretty "beasty" in combat. Add to that his ability to hold hearts and he's got essentially 10 fury in terms of combat effectiveness. That's also pretty beasty, especially if he happens to be crushing dudes and replenishing hearts as he goes. At that point, it's just dumb the damage he can do. Taken with Gheto (and lets be honest, you do) he has access to Spiny Growth, so hes basically 14/20 with SG damage vs jacks/beasts. On feat, he can easily be 14/22, effective MAT10 and PS19, with up to 10 fury to fight with. I really don't think they will stack even more on this guy. He is stupidly hard and hard-hitting already. He just does nothing for Tharn outside of Carnage. But I think PP kinda meant him that way. Maybe Kromac1 could be more tharn-centric? I just feel they really want Kromac2 to be a beast-focused warlock. If he's to be beast focused though, he has to be either as good or better than kaya3/una2. Someone did point out on another thread that the croc pot will turn him into a killing machine. Take him with gheto and a stalker and you've got a lightning strike 14/20 killing machine with 5 fury and 3 tokens to go. I'd like to see him get something instead of awakened spirit. It's just useless. Maybe mobility? Would give some extra threat range and actually make goats usable. Kromy 1 would be an okay infantry caster if he got a warrior model/unit damage spell. Lose warpath.
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Post by paradox on Feb 1, 2018 0:10:06 GMT
Interesting. I mean, he's MAT8 PS17GW with SPD6 PF and 2" Reach. And he's 14/18 with 19 life. So he's already pretty "beasty" in combat. Add to that his ability to hold hearts and he's got essentially 10 fury in terms of combat effectiveness. That's also pretty beasty, especially if he happens to be crushing dudes and replenishing hearts as he goes. At that point, it's just dumb the damage he can do. Taken with Gheto (and lets be honest, you do) he has access to Spiny Growth, so hes basically 14/20 with SG damage vs jacks/beasts. On feat, he can easily be 14/22, effective MAT10 and PS19, with up to 10 fury to fight with. I really don't think they will stack even more on this guy. He is stupidly hard and hard-hitting already. He just does nothing for Tharn outside of Carnage. But I think PP kinda meant him that way. Maybe Kromac1 could be more tharn-centric? I just feel they really want Kromac2 to be a beast-focused warlock. If he's to be beast focused though, he has to be either as good or better than kaya3/una2. Someone did point out on another thread that the croc pot will turn him into a killing machine. Take him with gheto and a stalker and you've got a lightning strike 14/20 killing machine with 5 fury and 3 tokens to go. I'd like to see him get something instead of awakened spirit. It's just useless. Maybe mobility? Would give some extra threat range and actually make goats usable. Kromy 1 would be an okay infantry caster if he got a warrior model/unit damage spell. Lose warpath. Good points. Personally, I love playing Kromac2 with beast swarms. I have a list in CotW with Gheto, stalker, 4 wild argus, 3 gorax support. Works good, and Kromac is alot more threatening than Kaya or Una, personally. I have Kaya3, and Im working around to her, but I have not picked up Una yet. But I totally get your point. Im just not sure you can beast him up too much more without getting ridiculous.
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Post by paradox on Feb 1, 2018 0:11:33 GMT
Theme: Call of the Wild 4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Kromac, Champion of the Wurm - WB: +28 - Gorax Rager - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Gorax Rager - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Gorax Rager - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Wild Argus - PC: 7 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7) - Wild Argus - PC: 7 - Wild Argus - PC: 7 - Wild Argus - PC: 7 - Argus Moonhound - PC: 6 - Scarsfell Griffon - PC: 8 - Warpwolf Stalker - PC: 19 - Ghetorix - PC: 21
Blackclad Wayfarer - PC: 0 Blackclad Wayfarer - PC: 0
Shifting Stones - Leader & 2 Grunts: 0 Shifting Stones - Leader & 2 Grunts: 0
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 1, 2018 0:13:19 GMT
paradox - he doesn't compare favorably with other 'beast' casters like Butcher, Barny2, etc. He's very killable, and you have to be careful about how you commit him. Unlike a caster like Thagrosh2 (who is...comparable...in terms of tankiness) he doesn't have a splashy BG efficiency spell like manifest destiny. He either needs to be more able to contribute personally without being at risk of dying, and/or he needs to improve his army support abilities. Personally, I think you could ditch the additional beastiness in combat if you swapped Awakened spirit for a better spell, and made the change to the feat to target 'models.' Then he could feasibly play in CoTW, Bones, or Devhost, which would give him a lot of flexibility in list-building. forthehorde - Don't you dare touch warpath. That's one of the last pieces of out-of-activation movement tech that Circle has. What Kromac1 could use is either a damage buff, or something that gives him more survivability into guns. One of those weaknesses is fine, both make him hard to slot into a pairing (as your offlist then has to handle both, and both are GENERALLY a problem for Circle lists). Overall, he's more of an 'okay' caster with meta issues than one that absolutely needs a buff, IMO.
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Post by paradox on Feb 1, 2018 0:18:43 GMT
paradox - he doesn't compare favorably with other 'beast' casters like Butcher, Barny2, etc. He's very killable, and you have to be careful about how you commit him. Unlike a caster like Thagrosh2 (who is...comparable...in terms of tankiness) he doesn't have a splashy BG efficiency spell like manifest destiny. He either needs to be more able to contribute personally without being at risk of dying, and/or he needs to improve his army support abilities. Personally, I think you could ditch the additional beastiness in combat if you swapped Awakened spirit for a better spell, and made the change to the feat to target 'models.' Then he could feasibly play in CoTW, Bones, or Devhost, which would give him a lot of flexibility in list-building. forthehorde - Don't you dare touch warpath. That's one of the last pieces of out-of-activation movement tech that Circle has. What Kromac1 needs is either a damage buff, or something that gives him more survivability into guns. One of those weaknesses is fine, both make him hard to slot into a pairing (as your offlist then has to handle both, and both are GENERALLY a problem for Circle lists). Not gonna lie, the thought of the feat affecting FFM does give me some wood. And not too nuts either.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 1, 2018 0:24:02 GMT
paradox - he doesn't compare favorably with other 'beast' casters like Butcher, Barny2, etc. He's very killable, and you have to be careful about how you commit him. Unlike a caster like Thagrosh2 (who is...comparable...in terms of tankiness) he doesn't have a splashy BG efficiency spell like manifest destiny. He either needs to be more able to contribute personally without being at risk of dying, and/or he needs to improve his army support abilities. Personally, I think you could ditch the additional beastiness in combat if you swapped Awakened spirit for a better spell, and made the change to the feat to target 'models.' Then he could feasibly play in CoTW, Bones, or Devhost, which would give him a lot of flexibility in list-building. forthehorde - Don't you dare touch warpath. That's one of the last pieces of out-of-activation movement tech that Circle has. What Kromac1 needs is either a damage buff, or something that gives him more survivability into guns. One of those weaknesses is fine, both make him hard to slot into a pairing (as your offlist then has to handle both, and both are GENERALLY a problem for Circle lists). Not gonna lie, the thought of the feat affecting FFM does give me some wood. And not too nuts either. Yeah, it mostly goes to his flexibility in list building...which incidentally makes him more powerful, but also just opens up more interesting builds to test with him. I'm always in favor with anything that takes a caster away from a monobuild (though I acknowledge that this design is integral to some - read, synergy - casters).
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Post by forthehorde on Feb 1, 2018 0:27:48 GMT
Kromy would need to get rid of something to become an infantry caster. And war path doesn't really make sense in an infantry list. Could get rid of wild aggression I guess but that makes more sense to me than war path.
We have enough beast casters. If kromy2 gets buffed to be an even better beast caster than why even bother with kromy 1 at all?
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 1, 2018 0:32:30 GMT
Kromy would need to get rid of something to become an infantry caster. And war path doesn't really make sense in an infantry list. Could get rid of wild aggression I guess but that makes more sense to me than war path. We have enough beast casters. If kromy2 gets buffed to be an even better beast caster than why even bother with kromy 1 at all? Kromac2's feat going to FFM would make him a better infantry caster, too. Tharn would LOVE a damage buff/armor buff, and there's not reason that awakened spirit couldn't be swapped to a more general support spell, either. Kromac1 is a very well designed beast caster, and should remain as such. Kromac2 can be easily redesigned into a more open/combined arms caster. I don't see a problem here.
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Post by wolfchild on Feb 1, 2018 0:35:46 GMT
paradox - he doesn't compare favorably with other 'beast' casters like Butcher, Barny2, etc. He's very killable, and you have to be careful about how you commit him. Unlike a caster like Thagrosh2 (who is...comparable...in terms of tankiness) he doesn't have a splashy BG efficiency spell like manifest destiny. He either needs to be more able to contribute personally without being at risk of dying, and/or he needs to improve his army support abilities. Personally, I think you could ditch the additional beastiness in combat if you swapped Awakened spirit for a better spell, and made the change to the feat to target 'models.' Then he could feasibly play in CoTW, Bones, or Devhost, which would give him a lot of flexibility in list-building. forthehorde - Don't you dare touch warpath. That's one of the last pieces of out-of-activation movement tech that Circle has. What Kromac1 needs is either a damage buff, or something that gives him more survivability into guns. One of those weaknesses is fine, both make him hard to slot into a pairing (as your offlist then has to handle both, and both are GENERALLY a problem for Circle lists). Got to agree, DO NOT even think about ditching Warpath! If I had to lose any spell on Kromac1 it’d be Rift. I know some folk got major use out of it via Geomancy, but not using Wolds means I’ve never got game out of it. Kromac1 could do with a tweak, but generally he’s not bad. His Feat still requires him to cut though, which a couple other casters (Butcher for 1) get all their Focus back without cutting.... Never understood why Kromac1 had to. As with Kromac2 Feat also could do with a tweak, they should both be able to run Tharn as a Tharn King. Maybe giving each a unit buff spell, or even a debuff to help our Tharn do more work. Of course if we had an idea how they would patch up our failing Tharn units then the spells required could fill the remaining gaps or else give them that final edge to be devastating in the right circumstances. It would be nice to want to run Tharn units outside of Dev Host too. No unit should be so dependant on theme, to not be run without it. My main hopes lie in giving the different units their own purpose (not just infantry mulching for all). Male Tharn (Ravagers and Bloodpack) esp Bloodpack need a boost to be effective. Tharn WolfRiders just need something .... they’re too expensive for a unit that misses so often on RAT6. They needed Prey to be reliable enough to justify their points and really annoyance is a terrible rule for a unit that hates being locked in melee. Give them back Hunter, to attack thru forests. Hell, the Menoth girls get sidestep, parry, 2 attacks, weaponmaster ..... If our girls are close enough to throw then even with repo5, they’re gonna get mulched the next turn.
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Post by forthehorde on Feb 1, 2018 0:45:04 GMT
His feat going ffm would be game changing overpowered. You're talking an entire army wide +2str +2arm. Ravagers swinging at 15 dmg 17 arm per swing, blood trackers throwing at 13 with weapon master, death wolves at 16,13,14 and arm 16. And that's not even going out of tharn theme. Yeah it sounds awesome but you'd slaughter anything and everything as soon as it got into range. Your infantry alone could drop 2 heavies in a turn.
Kromac 2 offers nothing to infantry. Kromac 1 at least had some infantry buffs and terrain gimics. Worst case move war path to kromy 2. Or keep the king of the tharn as 2 beast casters.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Feb 1, 2018 0:52:21 GMT
His feat going ffm would be game changing overpowered. You're talking an entire army wide +2str +2arm. Ravagers swinging at 15 dmg 17 arm per swing, blood trackers throwing at 13 with weapon master, death wolves at 16,13,14 and arm 16. And that's not even going out of tharn theme. Yeah it sounds awesome but you'd slaughter anything and everything as soon as it got into range. Your infantry alone could drop 2 heavies in a turn. Kromac 2 offers nothing to infantry. Kromac 1 at least had some infantry buffs and terrain gimics. Worst case move war path to kromy 2. Or keep the king of the tharn as 2 beast casters. I'm sorry, but...LOL. Just...lol. That's some serious Circle Stockholm Syndrome you've got going there, mate. When Legion can get Warspears to POW 19 spears with relative ease When Butcher1 makes Rockets POW 12 4d6 damage, or Iron Fangs P+S 13 WM When ANY fury caster can make two units a turn swing at +2 Strength When Battlelust is a cycleable upkeep that makes any unit weaponmasters When nearly every faction has at least one way to apply a +3 (or more) swing to at least two melee units, every single turn You're concerned about a FEAT that gives +2 strength (we can largely disregard +2 Armor - it's nice, but never going to be overpowered on Circle units) to models that are generally pillowfisted for their cost. +2 strength in control is barely a feat level effect. Signs and Portents does nearly as much for damage, but also applied to ranged attacks and to-hit rolls.
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Post by forthehorde on Feb 1, 2018 1:34:35 GMT
You're talking about buffing one or two units at a time versus your entire army. War Spears are 5 units at 13 power. With UA that's 15 on prey. With the right caster +2 str buff that's 17 power.
On feat turn your bloodtrackers would be power 13 PLUS weapon master, and double the amount of war Spears no UA needed.
Your units of 4-6 ravager a can hit for 15 power multiple times depending on corpse tokens. With the ability to boost said attacks too. That's your infantry hitting multiple times at warbeast damage.
Signs and portents is completely dice based. Where as this would be a consistent buff. And you can't just disregard armor on a 5 health tough unit. And again, this assumes the ravager isn't touched in the cid. If we get brutal charge back like many want, you're 17 damage on the charge. Add in the croc pot for free attacks and your units will slaughter.
All this on top of the dangerous damage our beasts would be doing too. Neither of the 2 casters with signs and portents has the beast ability we do. The khador caster spending half+ his focus on signs a turn is doing nothing with the slow moving khador jacks. And the gator man caster has nothing that moves as fast/as well and hits as hard as we do.
All this is ignoring the +2 mat carnage brings too.
You can try to sell it come cid time but I highly doubt anyone buys it.
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