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Post by bloodhawk on Dec 22, 2017 16:49:45 GMT
On a CID that says Tharn I wouldn't expect to see all the living beasts as well... I agree with you jisidro, but this idea scares me to death. Both Legion and Circle have CID's next year, and both factions need a CID on the majority of their models. For Circle we obviously got a mini CID with the Wolds in 12 factions of Christmas, which will help. But I would argue every living model in the factions will need to be looked at prior to bringing them to where they should be. With that being said I am really hoping we don't have to suffer through 2 or 3 more CID cycles over the next 3 years before we get our faction into a fully functional MkIII state. As it stands today it feels like Circle and Legion are Mk2.5 factions. Both were given many nerfs from their MkII incarnations as they were very powerful in MKII, however, then everything else in the game improved in the transition (namely all of warmachine), which leaves both factions in a spot where they feel incomplete to me. To summarize, I just hope they can rope as much into the upcoming CID as possible. If they do Tharn, and Warpwolves, I will live with it, but I hope they can go wider than that.
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Post by mindwormjim on Dec 22, 2017 18:28:19 GMT
For Tanith, just adjust it to say “The COST of a spell cannot be reduced to less than one as a result of Rites of the Wurm.”
+++
Tharn Blood Pack - Needs to be completely rebuilt from the ground up.
Tharn Bloodtrackers - No changes needed.
Nuala the Huntress - It would be nice to have Reposition again. Swift Hunter just isn’t worth it. I would be willing to pay 5 points for it.
Tharn Bloodweavers - The best unit that no one uses. I feel like this unit could use a little boost, but I’m honestly not sure where.
Bloodweaver Night Witch - No changes needed. But it’s a shame it overlaps so much with Ravagers.
Tharn Ravagers - Unit is fine, but could stand to be a point or two cheaper.
Tharn Ravagers Chieftain - As others have said, it would be nice if you didn’t lose everything if he dies. But I don’t think it’s absolutely necessary.
Tharn Ravager Shaman - No changes needed.
Tharn Ravagers White Mane - No changes needed. Although as a pure melee combat solo I wish it wasn’t so easy to kill.
Tharn Wolf Riders - They have the stats of ranged skirmish cavalry, are designed to function like heavy shock cavalry, and end up being poor at both. Pick one side and do that.
Tharn Wolf Rider Champion - It’s fine, it just needs to cost 2 points less.
Lord of the Feast - Honestly not sure what to do with this guy. His teleporting makes him tricky to balance, so he may be permanently stuck as a gimmick piece.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Dec 22, 2017 19:04:22 GMT
Bloodweaver Night Witch - No changes needed. But it’s a shame it overlaps so much with Ravagers. ... Tharn Ravagers White Mane - No changes needed. Although as a pure melee combat solo I wish it wasn’t so easy to kill. Everything in our faction's infantry selection overlaps with ravagers. It all kills infantry gud, and virtually nothing else. The night witch's problem is that she obsoletes the unit she's supposed to buff by being better than them at everything they do. The white mane is a terrible model. Expensive, veteran leader that only effects ravagers, not any better in combat than the ravager UA. goes into a tough unit, or a self-sacrifice unit, or any unit with a survivability mechanism better than 'pray it rolls low' and gets stuck. The nightwitch just straight up does his job better than he does. He either needs to be a dedicated support solo who offers real buffs to all tharn, or he should be an infantry blender. I favor the former, but it'll probably be the latter.
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Post by mindwormjim on Dec 22, 2017 19:11:30 GMT
Bloodweaver Night Witch - No changes needed. But it’s a shame it overlaps so much with Ravagers. ... Tharn Ravagers White Mane - No changes needed. Although as a pure melee combat solo I wish it wasn’t so easy to kill. Everything in our faction's infantry selection overlaps with ravagers. It all kills infantry gud, and virtually nothing else. The night witch's problem is that she obsoletes the unit she's supposed to buff by being better than them at everything they do. The white mane is a terrible model. Expensive, veteran leader that only effects ravagers, not any better in combat than the ravager UA. goes into a tough unit, or a self-sacrifice unit, or any unit with a survivability mechanism better than 'pray it rolls low' and gets stuck. The nightwitch just straight up does his job better than he does. He either needs to be a dedicated support solo who offers real buffs to all tharn, or he should be an infantry blender. I favor the former, but it'll probably be the latter. That’s a fair point. I was only looking at them in terms of raw viability, but diversity is also a problem for a lot of Circle infantry.
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Post by bloodhawk on Dec 22, 2017 20:22:24 GMT
Everything in our faction's infantry selection overlaps with ravagers. It all kills infantry gud, and virtually nothing else. The night witch's problem is that she obsoletes the unit she's supposed to buff by being better than them at everything they do. The white mane is a terrible model. Expensive, veteran leader that only effects ravagers, not any better in combat than the ravager UA. goes into a tough unit, or a self-sacrifice unit, or any unit with a survivability mechanism better than 'pray it rolls low' and gets stuck. The nightwitch just straight up does his job better than he does. He either needs to be a dedicated support solo who offers real buffs to all tharn, or he should be an infantry blender. I favor the former, but it'll probably be the latter. That’s a fair point. I was only looking at them in terms of raw viability, but diversity is also a problem for a lot of Circle infantry. You guys hit the nail on the head in my mind. The MKIII transition was supposed to diversify units to have a specific role. With Circle they actually took roles away and game us even more infantry killing that we don't need. Ravagers used to have powerful charge, for example, if they still had that they would be compelling anti armour choices, as it stands today they just kill infantry really good...just like... practically every other circle infantry or solo
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Post by elshinare on Dec 27, 2017 7:44:51 GMT
So, after reading a few comments, I will agree that what we hope will happen (living warbeast models being fixed, adjusted, reworked), Tharn models and models that are supported by the Tharn fluff will probably be the only ones to be fixed. Although, because of Kromack and Ghetorix I would guess that Warpwolves are part of the Tharn fluff, the fact that Morvhana has Brennos makes me wonder if it's not goats that will be included in the CiD
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Post by jisidro on Dec 27, 2017 11:27:46 GMT
Don't Forget CID ccle means new models and a box.
What models can expect apart from the warlock we already know about?
Is it the Circle structure whose existence I read about? Will circle have a Tharn structure instead of a Druid one? This would piss me off in so many levels...
I don't believe we'll get a 3rd Cav unit since we have 2 already...
What kind of unit are we missing? A second Wurmy character unit?
Ranged Solo? Super Ravager Solo/CA?
Large Based non-cav unit? Actually I feel this would be used for crucible as a Mr.Hyde unit...
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Post by newangel on Dec 27, 2017 14:33:22 GMT
I have a few ideas for what I would love to see in the CID. With Theme Forces being staples it does make diversifying models/units designed to be used within those themes a lot easier:
-eKromac Currently the Tharn King does absolutely nothing aside from Carnage for them. Una2, Wurmwood and Baldur1 all help with delivery and either a consistency or damage buff. I'd like to see Kromac's role changed quite significantly to offer Tharn units a lot more. Remove any 2 of his spells (though Carnage seems thematic enough to keep). Replace with Blood Fury and Hand of Death. Change the Feat to affect all living models/units. Ravagers are the key benefactors but Hand of Death is useful on either of the Ravager solos. It's also very different to what is currently on offer from other Warlocks - all out aggression with no care for survivability on the approach (+2 ARM from feat is something, but it's not helping a ton and it practically makes no difference to the female Tharn - which is also a good thing with regards to design space if that's what the new Tharn Warlock wants to support more).
-Ghetorix Currently he's a little over-costed I feel. Instead of being reduced in points though I'd like to see him get the same treatment as Mulg and become worth his points. Gain Relentless Charge, Heart eater (without the ability to buy or boost attack/damage rolls - but Bone Picker sounds wrong), Death Powered and Death Feast. Go up to 22/23 points. He's resilient, he hits like a truck and gives us a heavy that isn't reliant on Primal to get the job done. My only concern would be that he could be too resilient (ARM 24 under Kromac2's Feat). Maybe keeping the Corpses for 1 round only? Going over it in my head that he's a viable target for starting corpses in theme seems ok - you typically only get 6 and there are a few really good options (Solos, Chieftain and Death Wolves are all very compelling). And if Ghetorix only keeps them for a round then he isn't even on the radar.
-Tharn Ravagers I actually feel they aren't bad exactly, it's just that they currently have very little support within the faction (as with all of our units) from our Warlocks. The only change I would love to see is to go to 8 boxes. At 5 boxes with their low armour it feels they die trivially to anything and ARM 16 wouldn't be enough.
-Tharn Bloodweavers These girls are really solid but IMO 1 of their 3 attack types is practically useless (Life Stealer if anyone was wondering). Dispel would be 1 option for me. It was removed at the start of MK3 before themes were a thing. Now that list builds are more restricted in that regard it wouldn't be game breaking IMO. I did think about a few other options but nothing really jumped out at me.
-Death Wolves Very simply could just do with reducing their cost by 1 but staying at 9 isn't awful. I would however love to see them count as Tharn models for the purpose of generating free corpse tokens since they'll nearly always be taken.
-White Mane and Night Witch Combine the 2 together and you have the perfect solo for the theme. The issue is that right now they both do the same thing (except with Grievous Wounds the Night Witch does it better - If only she had 2" melee...Someone's role has to change and I think it's a little more complicated than it looks. Give the White Mane Grievous Wounds and all of a sudden the Witch becomes obsolete. No ideas leap out at me here.
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 27, 2017 14:34:44 GMT
I would love to see a new Tharn caster solo, maybe a new lesser lock?
Make it a male Tharn who is all about making his BG hit like a freight train and getting places fast?
It would be cool to see a unit of regular humans who became savage like the death wolves. Maybe give us a Weaponmaster unit finally? (I don’t count wolf riders yet)
Knowing past releases it will probably be a spin off of wolves of orboros. Give them all 2 handed axes, berserk, and Weaponmaster but make them Paper thin.
I would really like to see us get a Calvary Dragoon that is a Tharn ravager riding some larger forest creature. Not an entire unit, make it some specialty hunter. Like a blood pack solo that has Prey, RoF 2, And very solid Pow Weapons.
I would also like to see a new type of gorax or light beast introduced. Something with a ranged attack preferably. But I don’t know enough about that fluff to know what it could be.
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Post by jisidro on Dec 27, 2017 15:51:36 GMT
A new Gorax is a distinct possibility... I'd say with Shield guard but I wouldn't like Circle to become 2 factions (Wolds vs Livings) I'd much rather have the Call of the Wild theme include Wights to put a shield guard option that goes towards the theme benefits... While we are at it remove the living clause that got stuck in the discounted animus theme benefit.
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 27, 2017 16:17:06 GMT
A new Gorax is a distinct possibility... I'd say with Shield guard but I wouldn't like Circle to become 2 factions (Wolds vs Livings) I'd much rather have the Call of the Wild theme include Wights to put a shield guard option that goes towards the theme benefits... While we are at it remove the living clause that got stuck in the discounted animus theme benefit. The living clause in call does seem...pointless. A gorax with a weapon would be pretty cool. Maybe give them chain weapons like the brawler.
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Post by jisidro on Dec 27, 2017 17:01:06 GMT
I'd like a good combat light apart from the Scarsfell who is victimized by Una2 in his stats (like all other Gryphons) but we have so many of those... 3 Argus, 3 Gryphons, 2 Wolds...
The Warpwolf theme seems closed and it's by far my favorite...
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 27, 2017 17:34:08 GMT
I'd like a good combat light apart from the Scarsfell who is victimized by Una2 in his stats (like all other Gryphons) but we have so many of those... 3 Argus, 3 Gryphons, 2 Wolds... The Warpwolf theme seems closed and it's by far my favorite... See I actually think the Scarsfells is perfect for its cost. If anything it overpreforms in faction. Saying he is “victimized” is highly innacurate haha. He outshines our entire light stable haha. What we need is for the Rotterhorn to get a buff and the winter argus to become meaningful as well and I think we would have nice List diversity. I mean, what other fluff is there for circle heavies? The goats are pretty filled out, so are the Warpwolves and wolds. I guess it would be cool to get a Bird Heavy. Like a budget bird with elemental attacks. We could have a fire and ice Heavy with a ranged attack and some lower pow initials. That would be very interesting. It would also be cool if there was a heavy version of the gorax. Give us a Big old gorilla that throws Boulders and has Assault along with Rush as an animus
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Post by elshinare on Dec 27, 2017 20:41:23 GMT
A new Gorax is a distinct possibility... I'd say with Shield guard but I wouldn't like Circle to become 2 factions (Wolds vs Livings) I'd much rather have the Call of the Wild theme include Wights to put a shield guard option that goes towards the theme benefits... While we are at it remove the living clause that got stuck in the discounted animus theme benefit. The living clause in call does seem...pointless. A gorax with a weapon would be pretty cool. Maybe give them chain weapons like the brawler. How is the living clause pointless? that would be the same as the construct clause being pointless in Bones, at the same time you get more options for your units in Bones. Personally, I think the Death Wolves should be allowed in Call of The Wild too...give us 2 in faction units for the theme
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 28, 2017 5:15:36 GMT
From a rules perspective it’s almost completeley redundant with the theme restrictions. All that does is make megalith less desirable in Theme, seems pointless to me. Loki And Ghetorix get the bones of orboros benefits....
Death wolves don’t feel too thematic, but I’ll take anything we can get lol
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