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Post by musza on Jan 1, 2018 18:58:18 GMT
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jan 1, 2018 19:29:50 GMT
considering it was a warm-up "for fun" game it wasn't that bad. He was a little passive with the mountain king, but he did get some early work done with him. In our meta the rule is "if your garg isn't toeing at least 1 zone by turn 2 then you are playing it wrong." basically, if you aren't contesting with it by turn 2 then it would be better to spend the points elsewhere. We have several troll players and when they play double garg lists it is just hell trying to score a zone. I noticed that you never used soothing song, which is about the only reason to run Kaya3 (other than repo) in CotW. It would have greatly helped your fury situations that came later in the game. I'd also remove the winter argus and put in a regular argus instead, as they are much better with synergy build ups. You could also remove 1 argus and a scarsfell for a riphorn satyr, which basically becomes a sooped up gladiator titan under synergy. You can use the extra points for a second set of shifting stones so you can be more bold with a set and score on infantry zones. Another great way to use Kaya3 is to charge her up and rack up a synergy, then repo her into a shifting stone triangle, then activate the shifting stones and teleport her back to safety It's an annoying ass tactic that can win you games.
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Post by musza on Jan 2, 2018 10:58:37 GMT
considering it was a warm-up "for fun" game it wasn't that bad. He was a little passive with the mountain king, but he did get some early work done with him. In our meta the rule is "if your garg isn't toeing at least 1 zone by turn 2 then you are playing it wrong." basically, if you aren't contesting with it by turn 2 then it would be better to spend the points elsewhere. We have several troll players and when they play double garg lists it is just hell trying to score a zone. I noticed that you never used soothing song, which is about the only reason to run Kaya3 (other than repo) in CotW. It would have greatly helped your fury situations that came later in the game. I'd also remove the winter argus and put in a regular argus instead, as they are much better with synergy build ups. You could also remove 1 argus and a scarsfell for a riphorn satyr, which basically becomes a sooped up gladiator titan under synergy. You can use the extra points for a second set of shifting stones so you can be more bold with a set and score on infantry zones. Another great way to use Kaya3 is to charge her up and rack up a synergy, then repo her into a shifting stone triangle, then activate the shifting stones and teleport her back to safety It's an annoying ass tactic that can win you games. Yeah, I should use Soothing Song better but as I said - I was a bit rusty. As for the Winter Argus I agree to disagree. There are some matchups that he shines where Wild Argus can't do much (especially when you're out-threated or playing agains constructs like CoC). Also, spray and repo is fun which you can't get on a regular Argus, you should try it. I've played around 30 games with Kaya3 in CotW and I'm still trying to find the best setup for her tho. I like her with wide toolbox and versatility and Winter Coat adds to it. Rip Horn is a no-go to me, Bulldoze on a model with SPD5 and no pathfinder? Regarding Kaya's repo and shift with stones I tend to chooses targets she can sprint off. This was kinda unusual situation
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jan 2, 2018 19:16:58 GMT
I can agree that the winter argus adds to the utility of a Kaya3 list.
Even in my meta, the Rip Horn generally gets no love due to switching his animus. However, it's his stats that I'm willing to pay for. 19 arm, 12 def, 3 PS 15 attacks, mat 6... on a speed 5!? that's well beyond the ideal. Sure, he's not a warpwolf, but warpwolves cost extra too. What's really nice is when you can get off his chain grab and smash, where you can use his horn attack pow for the free head butt. Get him at the top of a synergy chain with primal and you're looking at one bad ass goat. 3 PS 20(15) initials with an extra PS 20(15) initial if you hit your first 2. His charge is free, leaving him with 3 fury to keep wrecking whatever he's hitting. The issue that I've noticed people having with him is that you do NOT play him like normal circle beasts, where you keep him under concealment and cover until it's time for an alpha. With the riphorn, you are suppose to be bold, just like Skorne and Menoth heavies. If he gets smashed, he gets smashed, but whatever they send in is going to die next turn due to all the raging beasties just waiting behind him.
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Post by musza on Jan 3, 2018 13:24:10 GMT
I can agree that the winter argus adds to the utility of a Kaya3 list. Even in my meta, the Rip Horn generally gets no love due to switching his animus. However, it's his stats that I'm willing to pay for. 19 arm, 12 def, 3 PS 15 attacks, mat 6... on a speed 5!? that's well beyond the ideal. Sure, he's not a warpwolf, but warpwolves cost extra too. What's really nice is when you can get off his chain grab and smash, where you can use his horn attack pow for the free head butt. Get him at the top of a synergy chain with primal and you're looking at one bad ass goat. 3 PS 20(15) initials with an extra PS 20(15) initial if you hit your first 2. His charge is free, leaving him with 3 fury to keep wrecking whatever he's hitting. The issue that I've noticed people having with him is that you do NOT play him like normal circle beasts, where you keep him under concealment and cover until it's time for an alpha. With the riphorn, you are suppose to be bold, just like Skorne and Menoth heavies. If he gets smashed, he gets smashed, but whatever they send in is going to die next turn due to all the raging beasties just waiting behind him. if they wait behind a SPD 5 goat, they're definitely not in any hurry for a fight I get your point, I respect using and mastering something that's considered bad by most players. This is how I uncovered Winter Argus's or Storm Raptor's potential. If you use those things right and understand their role well, it pays off. I just prefer Shadowhorn's 12" threat and lower point cost and I'll most probably go back using one or two of those. BTW. Tomorrow I play in finals of my local league steamroller, I'll hopefully do a Battle Report for you guys. Playing against Cryx, lists are unknown for now but I expect Skarre1 DH, Goreshade1 IM or Asphixious2 DH.
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Post by maplewhisky on Jan 4, 2018 10:45:30 GMT
Quick question for you re: your pairing Tomasz, what do you drop into Cygnar? Specifically Nemo3/Haley3. Where I'm playing that pairing is kind of a big deal, and in my experience Una2 isn't very good against either (although I do have her in my pairing as she's our best bet against Amon/Karchev etc). I've been flitting between Wurmwood, Baldur2 and Krueger2 as my offlist, I thought Baldur2 was a good compromise right up until Nemo3 shot my Woldwrath off the table on his feat turn. Krueger2 obviously solves the Nemo problem fine, but I don't think he's great into Haley3, on the flipside Wurmwood seems very strong vs Haley3 (particularly gravediggers) but is very flimsy (read: reliant on landing strangleholds on the engines) vs Nemo3.
Just wondering what your thoughts on this are, my current compromise is trying to build Wurmwood into Nemo3 and Krueger2 into Haley3 and seeing which I like more.
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Post by musza on Jan 5, 2018 11:46:01 GMT
Quick question for you re: your pairing Tomasz, what do you drop into Cygnar? Specifically Nemo3/Haley3. Where I'm playing that pairing is kind of a big deal, and in my experience Una2 isn't very good against either (although I do have her in my pairing as she's our best bet against Amon/Karchev etc). I've been flitting between Wurmwood, Baldur2 and Krueger2 as my offlist, I thought Baldur2 was a good compromise right up until Nemo3 shot my Woldwrath off the table on his feat turn. Krueger2 obviously solves the Nemo problem fine, but I don't think he's great into Haley3, on the flipside Wurmwood seems very strong vs Haley3 (particularly gravediggers) but is very flimsy (read: reliant on landing strangleholds on the engines) vs Nemo3. Just wondering what your thoughts on this are, my current compromise is trying to build Wurmwood into Nemo3 and Krueger2 into Haley3 and seeing which I like more. Recently, I've played against this exact pairing (Nemo3 in Heavy Metal/Haley3 in Gravediggers) with my Cygnar friend. I was testing Kaya3 and Bradigus myself. We played two games of Kaya3 vs Haley3, both on Recon II and both of which I won (First game on a death clock with a scenario advantage. Second game a caster assassination after I attrition my opponent down and forced Haley present to go in). Synergy and Primal makes Haley's crazy DEF pretty much irrelevant. Wild and Winter Argus helps a lot with that. It's a matter of utilizing terrain and FEAT in the right time (if you go first you FEAT turn 2). Also, make sure to camp at least 2-3 on Kaya every turn, Haley3 has a crazy assassination potential. Until you start your Synergy going Fog of War is obviously essential. Regarding Nemo3, I dropped Bradigus into him, scenario was Outlast. My alpha was so devastating he had to go for an assassination (Brad is on camp3, stays next to flag to suck e.leaps and has two shield guards) which failed but I'm not sure if it's the right drop or I was just lucky. If I was to pair something for this exact MU I would do Kaya3/Krueger2 myself. If your opponent see Krueger2 he drops Haley3 and you go Kaya3. BTW. a new super short battle report from my final game in local league: warroom.pl/en/a-short-report-from-local-league-steamroller-finale-bradigus-vs-asphyxious2/
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Post by maplewhisky on Jan 5, 2018 14:02:35 GMT
Quick question for you re: your pairing Tomasz, what do you drop into Cygnar? Specifically Nemo3/Haley3. Where I'm playing that pairing is kind of a big deal, and in my experience Una2 isn't very good against either (although I do have her in my pairing as she's our best bet against Amon/Karchev etc). I've been flitting between Wurmwood, Baldur2 and Krueger2 as my offlist, I thought Baldur2 was a good compromise right up until Nemo3 shot my Woldwrath off the table on his feat turn. Krueger2 obviously solves the Nemo problem fine, but I don't think he's great into Haley3, on the flipside Wurmwood seems very strong vs Haley3 (particularly gravediggers) but is very flimsy (read: reliant on landing strangleholds on the engines) vs Nemo3. Just wondering what your thoughts on this are, my current compromise is trying to build Wurmwood into Nemo3 and Krueger2 into Haley3 and seeing which I like more. Recently, I've played against this exact pairing (Nemo3 in Heavy Metal/Haley3 in Gravediggers) with my Cygnar friend. I was testing Kaya3 and Bradigus myself. We played two games of Kaya3 vs Haley3, both on Recon II and both of which I won (First game on a death clock with a scenario advantage. Second game a caster assassination after I attrition my opponent down and forced Haley present to go in). Synergy and Primal makes Haley's crazy DEF pretty much irrelevant. Wild and Winter Argus helps a lot with that. It's a matter of utilizing terrain and FEAT in the right time (if you go first you FEAT turn 2). Also, make sure to camp at least 2-3 on Kaya every turn, Haley3 has a crazy assassination potential. Until you start your Synergy going Fog of War is obviously essential. Regarding Nemo3, I dropped Bradigus into him, scenario was Outlast. My alpha was so devastating he had to go for an assassination (Brad is on camp3, stays next to flag to suck e.leaps and has two shield guards) which failed but I'm not sure if it's the right drop or I was just lucky. If I was to pair something for this exact MU I would do Kaya3/Krueger2 myself. If your opponent see Krueger2 he drops Haley3 and you go Kaya3. BTW. a new super short battle report from my final game in local league: warroom.pl/en/a-short-report-from-local-league-steamroller-finale-bradigus-vs-asphyxious2/Enjoyed the report, makes sense Brad can't really go toe to toe with Banes. Eventually all the weapon master catches up. I don't doubt CotW (Una or Kaya) can have a good game vs Haley3 Gravediggers (although I'd like to see a report of this, I thought her crazy accurate stuff would be a bigger problem for the griffons), my problem is consistency. If the Cygnar player knows that that's your only good drop into Haley then I'd rather not play list chicken. Personally I like having one caster that can handle both casters in an opposing pairing. I'd be curious how you felt about this if you'd had to play CotW into Nemo, because if your plan is drop Kaya into Haley and Brad into Nemo I'm not 100% sure that'll work out in the long run, eventually someone will guess right. ^^ That reason is why I'm trying to make a Krueger2 list work vs Haley3! Also not sure how you alpha'd Nemo and he didn't alpha you. :S Nemo3 has shot a Woldwrath off the table with RotE on it against me. Curious what the boardstate was that he didn't just pull the trigger and blow up a good chunk of your hitting power. Wights in particular seem especially fragile. Dunno, this pairing is pretty much the only one I feel like I'm really struggling with in Circle, Una2 CotW handles so much (even infantry based lists, they need to be infantry capable of fighting a flock of def 15 dodging sprinting griffons) that I feel like I can really get my 2nd list tailored to beat what she doesn't like. What would you say Kaya3 does that Una2 doesn't? I haven't tried her yet but she seems very similar in application to Una2.
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Post by musza on Jan 5, 2018 15:41:03 GMT
Regarding Una2 vs Kaya3 I think Kaya3 is a bit more versatile and can play defensively. You have a Fog of War, FEAT and generally higher arm beasts. Personally I prefer Una2 but she's more specialized, if you're opponent has an answer to her, you have no game (take CoC's Orion for example). It's almost never a thing with Kaya3, she just that much more flexible (I'm assuming you use a variety different beasts to widen the toolbox by their animus). As for the Nemo game. I was the first player and moved up behind a forest wall. Watchers are great for it, you can shoot a cheap minion unit in the back (I test it with ambushers now, they have AD and if I don't need a forest wall they can ambush) to put it where you want it to be. You could do it with Wardens but in my opinion they are too slow to bunker behind them. Nemo had to move up and got caught by my crazy threat ranges (Brad's FEAT). It's hard to avoid a 13-17" threat ranges from an army that's deployed 2" up. I must say, it could be different if we play the game again - it was just after Wold CiD and my opponent wasn't familiar with Bradigus capabilities now. I don't think Krueger2 has no game into Haley3 but I'd need to play this out to be sure. In my mind it's a pretty even matchup (depending on the Krueger's built). Make sure to include a Mist Speaker in the list
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Post by musza on Jan 5, 2018 16:14:29 GMT
Oh, you might want to consider Krueger1 Dev Host. Gale Wind is devastating for Haley3 (cloud wall) and might help you with Nemo3. Lightning Tendrils will protect your pieces against Nemo3 madness. If he plays in Storm Division your feat is pretty much useless but it's still strong a drop into both IMO.
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Post by maplewhisky on Jan 5, 2018 20:28:08 GMT
Regarding Una2 vs Kaya3 I think Kaya3 is a bit more versatile and can play defensively. You have a Fog of War, FEAT and generally higher arm beasts. Personally I prefer Una2 but she's more specialized, if you're opponent has an answer to her, you have no game (take CoC's Orion for example). It's almost never a thing with Kaya3, she just that much more flexible (I'm assuming you use a variety different beasts to widen the toolbox by their animus). As for the Nemo game. I was the first player and moved up behind a forest wall. Watchers are great for it, you can shoot a cheap minion unit in the back (I test it with ambushers now, they have AD and if I don't need a forest wall they can ambush) to put it where you want it to be. You could do it with Wardens but in my opinion they are too slow to bunker behind them. Nemo had to move up and got caught by my crazy threat ranges (Brad's FEAT). It's hard to avoid a 13-17" threat ranges from an army that's deployed 2" up. I must say, it could be different if we play the game again - it was just after Wold CiD and my opponent wasn't familiar with Bradigus capabilities now. I don't think Krueger2 has no game into Haley3 but I'd need to play this out to be sure. In my mind it's a pretty even matchup (depending on the Krueger's built). Make sure to include a Mist Speaker in the list See that's really interesting. I think you're probably right in that she has more options but I don't think her options are as strong. For example, Kaya's anti shooting tech isn't quite as good as Wind Wall, as a result she's not stellar into say, Kara Sloan. I suppose that's the price you pay for being more "specialised" as you put it! Personally I'd rather the brute strength to not lose certain matchups (Wind Wall is brilliant vs Khador, Skorne, Kara etc) than be more applicable / flexible vs a wider field. That is to say, I'd happily play 45-50% matchups all day instead of 50-55% but I have to rely on dodging matchups. Still, more Kaya3 reports are welcome, keen to see how she fits into the faction, and I've absolutely thought of playing Una2/Kaya3 (using Una with double goats). If Nemo was the 2nd player why did he have to move up? Could he not just wait out your forest wall? I'd be keen to see that game from an experienced Nemo3 player, that caster by far gives me more trouble than anything else just now, mostly because his lightning shtick ignores the majority of circle defensive tech and it feels like he has a favourable matchup into nearly the whole faction. No, I absolutely think Krueger has some game but I do think it's in her favour. I actually went one step further and took Lynus & Edrea. I figured 5pts that do basically no work when they're irrelevant is almost the same as 4pts that do basically no work when they're irrelevant. Although, giving my Woldwrath magic weapons would be nice in a few corner cases. Re: Krueger1, yeah I actually have a list in my War Room for him just now, but it's in Bones. I figured if I played anything but bones there wouldn't be enough lightning immunity for Nemo to not just fry everything around the one beast / unit I put Tendrils on, so I went with Bones with a Fulcrum & Wrath, so I can have 56pts of lightning immune model & a lightning immune caster. Problem I have with that list is I think it's pretty bad into most other stuff.
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Post by musza on Jan 5, 2018 20:59:35 GMT
Seems like your problem is you don't want to risk a list chicken into bad matchups and at the same time you want to remain specialized and focused. In a small local scene it might work but not in a larger meta, I think. I think versatility comes with a price and a player skill needs to do the test. I lost maybe 2 games with Una out of many I've played. This includes a Master event which I won, do they were not always easy ones. Believe me when I say - those 2 games I lost badly, it was a frykin disaster and most I won felt kinda easy. With Kaya3 my win ratio is simmilar but most games are grinded. They usually end on clock or scenario by attrition turn 6-7. It is due to the fact she can play into almost anything with no real advantage anywhere.
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Post by maplewhisky on Jan 5, 2018 21:19:19 GMT
No no, I would rather play nothing but 50/50 matchups all day, but that involves bringing casters that stop things like Kara Sloan or Amon from being problems. What matchups do you think Kaya would win that Una wouldn't?
In my mind Kaya isn't quite as good as una vs a bunch of random things, like infantry swarms where you can leverage sprint and the mass of def 15 elusive models, Kara Sloan, Vlad1, Rasheth etc (due to lack of Wind Wall) and a few others I'm sure. Maybe I just need to get some reps in with the caster, but I don't think I buy that Kaya is more versatile in the context of a 2 list pairing. Sure, you can perhaps drop her in a couple more games but if your pairing just folds to something like say Kara Sloan or Rasheth, what's the point?
What games did you lose? Do you think Kaya would have won? Do you think a pairing of Kaya / x is really going to have a higher win% against the field than Una2/x? I suppose that's the crux of what I'm getting at here, personally I don't think so, Wind Wall and the flock of griffons are very powerful tools.
For what it's worth, I hope I'm not seeming dismissive or unnecessarily argumentative. I'm very much enjoying the discussion and any insight into the Polish meta is always welcome, you guys are Firetrucking nuts.
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Post by musza on Jan 5, 2018 21:47:31 GMT
Regarding Def15 Griffina with free Elusive, Kaya3 can have a Def17 Griffons with free Elusive and Repo. See where I'm getting? Don't get me wrong, I myself prefer Una2 as well, she asks a harder question. I lost with Una against Orion, it left me traumatized, couldn't do a thing this game. I do think Kaya would be a better drop due to fog of war and soothing song. Kaya is also better into Haley3, Lylyth3, Twins, Nemo3, Issyria and probably some more, it depends on a build really, not only the caster itself. Generally, if your opponent has a way to ignore stealth, has magic attacks and high accuracy, you're screwed with Una.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Jan 5, 2018 23:27:05 GMT
krueger1 dev host, lightning tendrils on the bloodweavers with the nightwitch for killing spree x.O; it's every infantry list's nightmare, save the storm division.
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