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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 14, 2017 11:18:56 GMT
I don't know of a model that has pillow fists, but Aptimus Marketh has pillow pants...
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Post by borderprince on Dec 14, 2017 11:36:36 GMT
Not being able to chew through 170-234 ARM 20 boxes isn't really the definition of pillow fisted though, as that list is basically designed to make your opponent drop their hardest hitting list. I'm not sure that's true any more. I quite frequently end up with lists with 5 jacks in Khador, and they're not deliberately designed as an ARM/Box skew. I even ended up with that with Zerkova1 once, and she's really not a jack caster by any stretch of the imagination (and nonetheless, it wasn't a bad list). And with the improvements to Battle Engines, planning to be able to handle several heavies (via jack points) and/or a BE is the sort of thing I think lists do need to do now. Failing to do that will make the list pillow-fisted.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Dec 14, 2017 13:48:44 GMT
Further confusing the topic is how you account for common faction buffs like Arcanists in Ret or the Choir in Protectorate. Should you assume their buff is always applied when needed or use the base P+S of the models? If you are assuming the buff is included how do you take the point cost of the support in to account?
For example in Retribution there is only 1 heavy with base P+S of 18 and even the super-badass duel-wielding melee character is only 17. Is that pillowfisted or not since Arcanists get it up to 19? Do I now have to be able to kill a model worth 24 points because of the added cost of the support?
In the end it's not really a hard and fast rule because as with everything it's not only relative to the faction but highly reliant on what enemies you normally face and what casters you usually play. P+S 13 is pillowfisted until you add Synergy or face a swarm of ARM 15 troops.
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Post by bward on Dec 14, 2017 13:49:49 GMT
Heavy below pow 18. Almost all heavies need a damage/attack volume buff to one-round other heavies. But below pow 18 even those aren't enough. Found the khador player.
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Post by welshhoppo on Dec 14, 2017 13:58:00 GMT
Heavy below pow 18. Almost all heavies need a damage/attack volume buff to one-round other heavies. But below pow 18 even those aren't enough. Found the khador player. Well Khador doens't have any damage buffs that aren't coming directly from the warcaster's focus pool or feat. So yes, PS17 or below is pillow fisted for Khador.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Dec 14, 2017 14:31:27 GMT
Further confusing the topic is how you account for common faction buffs like Arcanists in Ret or the Choir in Protectorate. Should you assume their buff is always applied when needed or use the base P+S of the models? If you are assuming the buff is included how do you take the point cost of the support in to account? For example in Retribution there is only 1 heavy with base P+S of 18 and even the super-badass duel-wielding melee character is only 17. Is that pillowfisted or not since Arcanists get it up to 19? Do I now have to be able to kill a model worth 24 points because of the added cost of the support? In the end it's not really a hard and fast rule because as with everything it's not only relative to the faction but highly reliant on what enemies you normally face and what casters you usually play. P+S 13 is pillowfisted until you add Synergy or face a swarm of ARM 15 troops. Everything should be looked at in context. It's not that you should always take the buffs into account, but more that you should weigh it against other options. If the average P+S in a faction is 17 then 15 is pillow fisted, but if the average is only 14 (because the faction can easily manage a +6 swing for instance), then 15 is great. Likewise, a P+S 15 jack is "too pillow fisted" to take down an ARM 20 jack, but is perfectly fine against ARM 17 jacks. For instance, I personally think the Kraken is pillow fisted, even at P+S 19, because its inherent ability to boost its strength is tedious to get going, especially if you have to do it before getting to the jacks/beasts you actually want to be killing. It's also a colossal which you would expect to dish out a lot of damage, yet the Seether, with an extra base attack, berserk and free charges will often outperform it.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Dec 14, 2017 17:23:36 GMT
Heavy below pow 18. Almost all heavies need a damage/attack volume buff to one-round other heavies. But below pow 18 even those aren't enough. That's not necessarily true. Not every single Heavy is a khador jack. Average heavy is Arm 19 and about 30 boxes. Assuming you either get a free charge or have 4 Fury/Foc a pow 16 heavy with a single +2 swing in his P+S can just about one round the average arm 19 heavy. You also have heavies like Cryx jacks, warpwolves, and Legion Flying heavies that rely on Def over arm and boxes. Meaning all those Mat 7 jacks have way better stock into them. Any heavy that can kill the average heavy with a buff or 2 is by no means pillow fisted. I think the community is traumatized by Khador Jacks and everyone feels they need Heavies that can easily one round a Khador heavy. But we forget Khador heavies are the exception to the standard. You don't one-round arm 19 either if you're pow 17 or lower even with a buff. You can do it if you spike, but it's not reliable enough. Needing 2 buffs usually drains your resources or has additional requirements (primal, cryx different debuff stacking, etc.). Stacking buffs can make anything kill anything, the separation between pillow-fisted and not is what does it without buff stacking. I agree that arm 19 is what you actually have to aim for on average.
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Post by greytemplar on Dec 14, 2017 17:55:18 GMT
Generally, I would say pow14 for beasts and pow15 for jacks. Assuming there are no universally available buffs in play like Choir or beast handlers.
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Post by jisidro on Dec 14, 2017 17:59:51 GMT
I'd say pillowfisted in a list that can't safely one round a slightly buffed heavy with its chosen weapons...
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Post by chillychinaman on Dec 14, 2017 19:03:34 GMT
I know there are players that don't put stock into calculators, but it seems that, assuming MAT6 jack that doesn't charge, with two initials, and attacking a target with 11/19 30boxes, it needs to be PS19 for the kill to be a coin-toss. Interestingly, the threshold for is almost the same for 12/18 30boxes and for 10/19 32 boxes.
In the case of the Juggernaut with 10/20 and 34boxes, you basically have to put in double its cost for a or provide a +/-4 damage swing in your favor for a remotely close similar shot of 1-rounding it.
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 14, 2017 19:11:05 GMT
I know there are players that don't put stock into calculators, but it seems that, assuming MAT6 jack that doesn't charge, with two initials, and attacking a target with 11/19 30boxes, it needs to be PS19 for the kill to be a coin-toss. Interestingly, the threshold for is almost the same for 12/18 30boxes and for 10/19 32 boxes. In the case of the Juggernaut with 10/20 and 34boxes, you basically have to put in double its cost for a or provide a +/-4 damage swing in your favor for a remotely close similar shot of 1-rounding it. Which is why people had issues with the juggy and maurader back before cryx ran all the khador away.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Dec 14, 2017 20:49:36 GMT
I know there are players that don't put stock into calculators, but it seems that, assuming MAT6 jack that doesn't charge, with two initials, and attacking a target with 11/19 30boxes, it needs to be PS19 for the kill to be a coin-toss. Interestingly, the threshold for is almost the same for 12/18 30boxes and for 10/19 32 boxes. In the case of the Juggernaut with 10/20 and 34boxes, you basically have to put in double its cost for a or provide a +/-4 damage swing in your favor for a remotely close similar shot of 1-rounding it. Which is why people had issues with the juggy and maurader back before cryx ran all the khador away. And instead of thanking us, all I hear is whining. Firetrucking ingrates, I tell you! -und_ed
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Post by macdaddy on Dec 14, 2017 21:16:44 GMT
Which is why people had issues with the juggy and maurader back before cryx ran all the khador away. And instead of thanking us, all I hear is whining. Firetrucking ingrates, I tell you! -und_ed Kind of hard to be thankful when the new overlords are also kicking your teeth in haha
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on Dec 14, 2017 21:57:34 GMT
And instead of thanking us, all I hear is whining. Firetrucking ingrates, I tell you! -und_ed Kind of hard to be thankful when the new overlords are also kicking your teeth in haha If you're chewing on toes then thank us speaking in vowels. We'll understand, benevolent overlords that we are -und_ed
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Post by gobber on Dec 14, 2017 23:34:01 GMT
I don't know of a model that has pillow fists, but Aptimus Marketh has pillow pants... The Large Phantasm has to count for that...
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