boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
|
Post by boozy on Nov 29, 2017 22:36:26 GMT
*eye twitches in discomfort* What, are you saying you find some difficulty in understanding electro-leaps? They're just attacks that aren't attacks at all, and so get around every possible defense or retaliation for getting attacked, even though they otherwise behave exactly like attacks. Because that's super-easy and wonderful, and I can't believe anybody would ever get confused by these not-attack attacks. Lol. I found them easy understand and apply. Sorry to humble brag. It may simply be a holdover for those of us from MKII. Nowadays, the card specifically says they are not attacks do do not trigger any effects that result of an attack or damage from an attack. I remember before though it caused a fair amount of confusion and salt.
|
|
|
Post by snarlyyow on Nov 30, 2017 21:39:34 GMT
I think most people are right on but I also think that using arc nodes to remove those crucial support pieces is sort of a massive waste. You don't see that often. You don't see Cryx spell slingers throwing out Arcane Bolts or whatever to kill choir. It's simply not a core part of the game. If taking apart your opponents' army bit by bit is what you're after I think there are two factions to consider:
Cygnar - I think Cygnar naturally does this better than any other faction. With a bevy of long range highly accurate guns, electroleaps, arc nodes, Stormcalls, Fireflies, and the rest; there's simply not a better army in the game at removing stuff like Choir, Deathstalkers, Widowmakers, Arcanists and the like. Cygnar lists threaten those models every turn, maybe not as much as in mkii since Gun Mages are not seen as often, but the Storm Strider and Firefly alone are enough to threaten every support piece turn after turn. Lists don't even need to be built to do it, they just do of their own accord by simply being Cygnar lists. You'd almost have to go out of your way to not build a list to do it.
Retribution - This faction is very similar to Cygnar. They have guns, which are not as long range and typically have a lesser RAT. But they come with some secondary abilities like Blessed or AOEs and so on and so forth. Models like Battle Mages and Electromancers have very "Cygnar-like" abilities. Retribution infantry also tends to be slightly better than Cygnar infantry, in terms of point cost and having clearer single-minded roles that are performed better than their Swanny counterparts.
I'd say the difference between these factions is interesting because both of these factions feel very similar.
Warcasters - Cygnar has more Warcasters that can contribute offensively with ranged or melee attacks. Yes, Retribution has some great casters as well, but Stryker2, the Caines, Haley2, Haley3, the Sieges...all these casters are terrifying offensive pieces that can seal the deal on any turn. Ret casters are very strong offensively, above the curve, but not to the level of Cygnar casters.
Warjacks - Similar warjacks with pretty average stat-lines on both sides. Cygnar has more range, Ret has more utility here. All in all I think the quality of jacks is pretty equal.
Solos - Both factions have an abundance of very powerful solos. I think Ret is a little better off in this department and that's saying something since Cygnar's bench of solos is quite good.
Units - Both factions have wonky, much hated, infantry choices. They are both expensive and need support to do their thing. Cygnar infantry tends to be multi-faceted with a lot of options. Models like Trenchers and Stormblades have gads of possibilities and choosing right or choosing wrong might swing a game completely and totally (Do you shoot your electroguns or charge or backup or dig-in or cloud wall...). Retribution infantry is very similar defensively but much different offensively. Units tend to have a clearer purpose but less utility. Dawnguard Sentinels have better melee performance than Stormblades, and both have a similar role in melee, but Stormblades have guns. Sentinels are better melee troopers than Stormblades could ever hope for, but Stormblades have guns. But neither set of infantry is as good as Cryx's or Khador's. Everyone's infantry tends to die in droves here when played incorrectly. The power of other factions, especially Khador and Mercs, is in their cheap, plentiful, useful infantry. Cygnar and Ret infantry have better offensive stats than other factions, equally crappy defensive stats, and they pay a crap-ton for them.
Both of these factions live and die on their strong casters and quality support pieces. Both factions seem to require a clear and well connected game plan to play at the upper echelons. Both factions have quality guns (Cygnar's are better, the best in the game probably) and both factions pay a steep price to have them.
|
|
|
Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Nov 30, 2017 22:36:38 GMT
... Warjacks - Similar warjacks with pretty average stat-lines on both sides. Cygnar has more range, Ret has more utility here. All in all I think the quality of jacks is pretty equal. ... Both of these factions live and die on their strong casters and quality support pieces. Both factions seem to require a clear and well connected game plan to play at the upper echelons. Both factions have quality guns (Cygnar's are better, the best in the game probably) and both factions pay a steep price to have them. This is a good post and a pretty solid explanation of the difference between the two; I have a few minor disagreements but that's neither here nor there. What I do want to dig in to is the jacks though, because I think there's a lot more going on here than a newbie might realize. Generally speaking when a new player starts Warmachine they're looking to stomp around some big ole robots and beat each other up, and that's something that Cygnar can do quite well. When you look at a Cygnaran heavy warjack (light warjacks are always a little weird in every faction so I won't worry about those right now) you can pretty much tell what it's supposed to do: If gun = Shoot, If not = Punch. There's various different kinds of guns and melee weapons that specialize in different targets but broadly speaking the main job of Cygnaran heavy warjacks is to deal damage. This goes for the heavy warjacks in most other factions as well, though there are some exceptions. Retribution, on the other hand, really isn't looking to their warjacks as their primary damage-dealers. With models like Dawnguard Sentinals that hit harder in melee or Mage Hunter Strike Force that have more applicable guns Retribution jacks really aren't the standout hitters that they are in most other factions. Instead, you have to look a bit deeper and start to see the utility aspects they offer. Every single Retribution heavy warjack has a gun. Every. Single. One. That means that your warjacks are contributing to the battle almost every turn rather than just trying to run to position. And a large portion of those guns have secondary effects that can be even more useful than the damage they deal. Retribution heavies have guns that move enemy models, guns that knock down enemy models, guns that reduce enemy defense, increase friendly spell ranges, set enemies on fire, stop them from casting spells, or literally paralyze them. In Retribution your warjack's guns act as enablers, providing a high-accuracy (with boosts) platform with with to apply effects to your enemy. Not only that, but many Retribution heavies have powerful support effects as well. The Banshee stops enemies nearby from giving orders or casting spells, the Phoenix has an arc node and sets enemies around it on fire. Discordia protects her allies from ranged and blast damage, Hypnos is immune to spells, and the Helios not only hands out Focus to other warjacks but also increases it's own defense and pushes around enemies that try to attack it. In Retribution your warjacks are almost never going to be a straightforward damage dealer. They have low ranges, low POWs, and they can't take a lot of damage (for the most part), but they bring a myriad of powerful enabling abilities to your army that can befuddle your opponents and leave them vulnerable to your powerful infantry. If that sounds cool, then Ret is your bag. If that sounds like a pain and you just want your stompy robots to stomp stuff then Ret probably isn't for you.
|
|
faelin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 121
|
Post by faelin on Dec 1, 2017 7:53:54 GMT
This clip reminds me of playing the retribution. I think it's the sci fi theme the ret has and their focused nature. youtu.be/xNGJP-p4ISYThey need to plan everything. Everything has a role and it's all about using the right tools in the right place. Someone messes around with your beautiful plan, you start to flail. But when you manage everything right..... Also I would agree that our Jack's are worse 1v1 in combat. I would disagree that they are less useful or good. I would also argue that we can run Jack swarms much better then Cygnar.
|
|
|
Post by snarlyyow on Dec 1, 2017 17:28:38 GMT
... Warjacks - Similar warjacks with pretty average stat-lines on both sides. Cygnar has more range, Ret has more utility here. All in all I think the quality of jacks is pretty equal. ... Both of these factions live and die on their strong casters and quality support pieces. Both factions seem to require a clear and well connected game plan to play at the upper echelons. Both factions have quality guns (Cygnar's are better, the best in the game probably) and both factions pay a steep price to have them. This is a good post and a pretty solid explanation of the difference between the two; I have a few minor disagreements but that's neither here nor there. What I do want to dig in to is the jacks though, because I think there's a lot more going on here than a newbie might realize. Generally speaking when a new player starts Warmachine they're looking to stomp around some big ole robots and beat each other up, and that's something that Cygnar can do quite well. When you look at a Cygnaran heavy warjack (light warjacks are always a little weird in every faction so I won't worry about those right now) you can pretty much tell what it's supposed to do: If gun = Shoot, If not = Punch. There's various different kinds of guns and melee weapons that specialize in different targets but broadly speaking the main job of Cygnaran heavy warjacks is to deal damage. This goes for the heavy warjacks in most other factions as well, though there are some exceptions. Retribution, on the other hand, really isn't looking to their warjacks as their primary damage-dealers. With models like Dawnguard Sentinals that hit harder in melee or Mage Hunter Strike Force that have more applicable guns Retribution jacks really aren't the standout hitters that they are in most other factions. Instead, you have to look a bit deeper and start to see the utility aspects they offer. Every single Retribution heavy warjack has a gun. Every. Single. One. That means that your warjacks are contributing to the battle almost every turn rather than just trying to run to position. And a large portion of those guns have secondary effects that can be even more useful than the damage they deal. Retribution heavies have guns that move enemy models, guns that knock down enemy models, guns that reduce enemy defense, increase friendly spell ranges, set enemies on fire, stop them from casting spells, or literally paralyze them. In Retribution your warjack's guns act as enablers, providing a high-accuracy (with boosts) platform with with to apply effects to your enemy. Not only that, but many Retribution heavies have powerful support effects as well. The Banshee stops enemies nearby from giving orders or casting spells, the Phoenix has an arc node and sets enemies around it on fire. Discordia protects her allies from ranged and blast damage, Hypnos is immune to spells, and the Helios not only hands out Focus to other warjacks but also increases it's own defense and pushes around enemies that try to attack it. In Retribution your warjacks are almost never going to be a straightforward damage dealer. They have low ranges, low POWs, and they can't take a lot of damage (for the most part), but they bring a myriad of powerful enabling abilities to your army that can befuddle your opponents and leave them vulnerable to your powerful infantry. If that sounds cool, then Ret is your bag. If that sounds like a pain and you just want your stompy robots to stomp stuff then Ret probably isn't for you. Absolutely. It's sort of what I meant when I said Ret had more utility. It's almost like Cygnar's jacks and infantry are inversed to Ret's. Cygnaran jacks go "pew-pew" or "smash" or sometimes "pew-smash-pew". Ret's jacks sound like "whizz-BLAM-whhhiiirrrr-pphheewww". Meanwhile, it's Cygnar's infantry that's the confusing jumble of bullshit that Ret's jacks are while Ret's infantry is pretty straightforward but still very expensive like Cygnar's jacks. Here's the algebra... Ret Jacks = Confusing Utility = Cygnar Infantry Cygnar Jacks = Solid toolbox = Ret Infantry
|
|
|
Post by Tom_Bombadil_ on Dec 1, 2017 18:00:21 GMT
HubertJFarnsworth I feel covered Ret Jacks really well. In most cases we trade raw power for special effects. All of our jacks guns have some sort of ability besides damage. The one downside to this is that rarely in Ret is there a 'Budget' Option. Even our melee beater heavies have guns so you will have to pay a little extra even if you don't plan on using it much. The Manticore is my go to melee heavy but it is 2pts extra over the Cygnar equivalent because it has a 12/12 gun.
|
|
|
Post by snarlyyow on Dec 1, 2017 19:28:44 GMT
HubertJFarnsworth I feel covered Ret Jacks really well. In most cases we trade raw power for special effects. All of our jacks guns have some sort of ability besides damage. The one downside to this is that rarely in Ret is there a 'Budget' Option. Even our melee beater heavies have guns so you will have to pay a little extra even if you don't plan on using it much. The Manticore is my go to melee heavy but it is 2pts extra over the Cygnar equivalent because it has a 12/12 gun. And covering fire. It's essentially a more complex cyclone with more POW. It's a wonky jack and not cheap. Loads of utility but altogether cumbersome.
|
|
faelin
Junior Strategist
Posts: 121
|
Post by faelin on Dec 1, 2017 23:39:28 GMT
It's a beatiful jack and very cheap for all its unspeakable awesomeness. Loads of utility that comes in an unstoppable, able to do everything, package. Corrected post to accurately reflect my favorite Jack in the game.
|
|
doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
|
Post by doopsie on Dec 3, 2017 5:06:38 GMT
It's a beatiful jack and very cheap for all its unspeakable awesomeness. Loads of utility that comes in an unstoppable, able to do everything, package. Corrected post to accurately reflect my favorite Jack in the game. You spell "Imperatus" funny.
|
|
|
Post by Big Fat Troll on Dec 3, 2017 5:26:56 GMT
In addition to everything that has been mentioned thus far, and of course the look of the models, I will say a few things:
1) Do bear in mind that some players love the Focus system and hate the Fury system, or vice versa. So try out Circle and Legion as well, especially things like Warpwolf Stalkers, Gallows Groves, Seraphs, and Raptors.
2) Talk to the faction communities here and see if that gives you a clearer idea.
3) Take stock of what you're really looking for and consider the whole package.
4) When you have a better sense of each faction, take a closer look at individual casters. You will inevitably have favorites that may draw you in one direction or another, and you will probably be playing only two or three different casters at first.
5) Lastly, take an honest look at how important it is to you to have a faction that will always be strong competitively. Throughout the entire history of the game, Cryx has almost never been truly weak, and they absolutely dominated throughout most of Mk2. They are now clearly the strongest faction again and will be at least until after Lock & Load next July. They will probably always be in at least the top 3, along with Cygnar. (The other member of the top 3 rotates pretty often.)
|
|