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Post by Gamingdevil on Dec 5, 2017 8:59:18 GMT
I’m fairly certain Goreshade2 Infernal Machines is one of the best lists nobody is ever going to play simply due to how expensive it is. Feating Back Brute Thralls at full health seems real good You might want to go with max units because returned models need to be in formation. Also, why not add Necrosurgeons? They add to the recursion element and when push comes to shove, you can sacrifice the Stitch Thralls for Brutes.
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Post by grotsnik on Dec 5, 2017 15:28:10 GMT
I would go with
3x min units with 3x brutes and Commander 45pts 2x min units with 3x brutes 24pts 2x necrosurgeons free 3x scrap thralls 6
You can either add one commander or a pistol wraith for the extra free card
Another option is
2x max units with 3x brutes and Commander 36pts 1x max unit with 3x brutes 15pts 1x max soulhunters 18pts 2x necrosurgeons free 3x scrap thralls 6pts
Again with an extra free card to use
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Dec 5, 2017 16:37:58 GMT
I’m fairly certain Goreshade2 Infernal Machines is one of the best lists nobody is ever going to play simply due to how expensive it is. Feating Back Brute Thralls at full health seems real good You might want to go with max units because returned models need to be in formation. Also, why not add Necrosurgeons? They add to the recursion element and when push comes to shove, you can sacrifice the Stitch Thralls for Brutes. Necrosurgeons suck because Mechanithralls suck. If they could do the same spend 3 corpses to revive a Brute Thrall trick that the Sepulcher can I’d say go for it, but as they are they can only revive garbage. If I wanted to recur cannon fodder I’d play Ghost Fleet.
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Post by darkshroud on Dec 5, 2017 17:49:11 GMT
You might want to go with max units because returned models need to be in formation. Also, why not add Necrosurgeons? They add to the recursion element and when push comes to shove, you can sacrifice the Stitch Thralls for Brutes. Necrosurgeons suck because Mechanithralls suck. If they could do the same spend 3 corpses to revive a Brute Thrall trick that the Sepulcher can I’d say go for it, but as they are they can only revive garbage. If I wanted to recur cannon fodder I’d play Ghost Fleet. yea, at least they have range. but one could argue thralls have ambush but so do witches so why bother with thralls? yea, i dont know
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Post by custardboy on Dec 5, 2017 20:35:34 GMT
I've only played Shade2 twice but necrosurgeons definitely add to it. The thing is, for 4 points you get 4 dudes and the ability to make more dudes for the feat. Say you feat turn 3, you've probably generated 3-6 thralls by then- let's say 4. They and your stich thralls get sacrificed, might as well keep the surgeon. You've got 7 bodies to sacrifice for 4 points which is a little better than scrap thralls. But you also get a necrosurgeon and mcthralls, while crappy fodder, are still better troops than scrap thralls.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Dec 6, 2017 5:03:41 GMT
Do you know why these units are so terrible? Even if people seem to think they're fine, because you can have many and blahty blah. It's because they do nothing. 1 thrall does nothing, 20 thralls do nothing x 20. If an element in your army can be almost ignored, I don't think it is justified being there in the current meta. Brutes are nice, but they are not exactly hard to remove. I'm exaggerating of course Less than a 1 point model hitting p+s 13 on a charge is alright, as long as it can hit. I also do like Tiberius' positive thinking IM is a flexible theme and can be built many ways. It is certainly true, but maybe the defensive tech of the list isn't quite there yet? I can't pinpoint the problems much further than thralls being bad and dying too easily. Really would like this list to work better, and perhaps I just gotta keep playing and toying with different tools available. It is not an easy list to play for sure.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Dec 6, 2017 7:40:21 GMT
Do you know why these units are so terrible? Even if people seem to think they're fine, because you can have many and blahty blah. It's because they do nothing. 1 thrall does nothing, 20 thralls do nothing x 20. If an element in your army can be almost ignored, I don't think it is justified being there in the current meta. Brutes are nice, but they are not exactly hard to remove. I'm exaggerating of course Less than a 1 point model hitting p+s 13 on a charge is alright, as long as it can hit. I also do like Tiberius' positive thinking IM is a flexible theme and can be built many ways. It is certainly true, but maybe the defensive tech of the list isn't quite there yet? I can't pinpoint the problems much further than thralls being bad and dying too easily. Really would like this list to work better, and perhaps I just gotta keep playing and toying with different tools available. It is not an easy list to play for sure. I think you hit the nail on the head. Mechanithralls are numerous, but that's it. They really need some tech to help them hit, which will most likely be your caster, or you need to use easy to kill Bile Thralls against infantry. Then the only anti-shooting tech you have are Brute Thralls with shield guard, cute, but they're still 12/14, the Wraith Engine, but you have low ARM across the board, or engage with fast, but expensive, Soul Hunters. Meanwhile, all the other themes are decked out with tech and actually do something, so why would you really play Infernal Machines except when you really want jack support and for some reason don't want to play Black Industries?
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Post by darkshroud on Dec 6, 2017 17:44:02 GMT
maybe their sole purpose is to eat your opponents clock. seriously. because if they want to score a zone, theyll need to remove them, spending their resources on them. if they perceive that theyre a threat, theyll spend clock and attacks removing them.
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Post by tiberius on Dec 6, 2017 18:29:11 GMT
I am not sure why people are saying you cant get work done with Mechanithralls. I guess that is true if you are constantly facing DEF skew. I face the protectorate or convergence most times so high defense is not something I usually face and that isn't the mechanithralls job to handle anyhow. In Infernal Machines, they ambush, well a single unit of them does, which is typically all I take, and they can easily get into back arcs of a flank with their speed.
For me, mechanithralls get plenty of work done and if I do bring a recursion boat with the necrosurgeon and/or a sepulcher, they tend to be very hard for my opponent to completely remove. Maybe your opponents are a lot more lucky than mine, or are world class strategists, but I have had my opponents verbally complain about not being able to remove enough thralls to chew threw the recursion, especially with the rest of the list doing its job.
So I understand MAT 5 is not good, but you do have 2 attacks and are fast enough to get back strikes with ambush, or if your opponent is staying in the center of the board, good for you, you have the flank. DEF 12 and ARM 12 are not great, but they are 9 pts for a 10 man unit and DEF 12 is pretty average. Brutes, while 2 pts a piece, can really hurt heavies on a charge. And you typically don't have just one.
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Post by Cryptix on Dec 7, 2017 3:08:32 GMT
I am not sure why people are saying you cant get work done with Mechanithralls. I guess that is true if you are constantly facing DEF skew. I face the protectorate or convergence most times so high defense is not something I usually face and that isn't the mechanithralls job to handle anyhow. In Infernal Machines, they ambush, well a single unit of them does, which is typically all I take, and they can easily get into back arcs of a flank with their speed. For me, mechanithralls get plenty of work done and if I do bring a recursion boat with the necrosurgeon and/or a sepulcher, they tend to be very hard for my opponent to completely remove. Maybe your opponents are a lot more lucky than mine, or are world class strategists, but I have had my opponents verbally complain about not being able to remove enough thralls to chew threw the recursion, especially with the rest of the list doing its job. So I understand MAT 5 is not good, but you do have 2 attacks and are fast enough to get back strikes with ambush, or if your opponent is staying in the center of the board, good for you, you have the flank. DEF 12 and ARM 12 are not great, but they are 9 pts for a 10 man unit and DEF 12 is pretty average. Brutes, while 2 pts a piece, can really hurt heavies on a charge. And you typically don't have just one. Everything about his post is good, but especially that last part. A full unit of thralls + brutes have killed a def warded revelator on the charge for me with just parasite, and even just brutes by themselves easily kill jacks. Sure, we might have better options, but not for so cheap and with so little investment.
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Post by grotsnik on Dec 7, 2017 7:46:20 GMT
It would be nice to have a theme that gives necrosurgeons fa 4, the problem with IM is that it was concived when pp didnt intend to release a lot of TFs so its purpose was to be a theme for both jacks and thralls, now with BI if you want jacks you know where to go, and so IM is left as a mediocre thrall TF
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Post by far2casual on Dec 7, 2017 10:07:39 GMT
Everything about his post is good, but especially that last part. A full unit of thralls + brutes have killed a def warded revelator on the charge for me with just parasite, and even just brutes by themselves easily kill jacks. Sure, we might have better options, but not for so cheap and with so little investment. Been a while since I've used McThralls, but when I did (with Aiakos, against Khador) their output is clearly pretty decent overall for what is supposed to be a trash unit. POW13 combo strikes actually can scratch ARM20 reliably, and with just a small buff (a +2 dmg or a -2 ARM), they will hurt it good. If you do not need damage but reliability, two MAT5 attacks will hit DEF13 almost as reliably as one MAT7 attack (66% vs 72%), which makes McThralls not even as bad as you would think against medium DEF infantry. So, McThralls are hopeless against heavies with very high ARM (>21+) or high def (13+), or infantry with very high DEF (15+). In that case, they will need help. To get back on my experience, McThralls with Aiakos2's Carnage and Scything Touch where needed were absolutely fine. If you want to have a look at a unit that does absolutely nothing, look at Carrion Thralls.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Dec 7, 2017 10:20:05 GMT
If you want to have a look at a unit that does absolutely nothing, look at Carrion Thralls. It's funny how the whole Cryx community was fawning over them at release and now you see them literally nowhere.
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Post by tiberius on Dec 7, 2017 12:27:52 GMT
The thing with carrion thralls is they serve a different function than mechanithralls. They are way more mobile and a slightly higher DEF so they get to the sweet spot of DEF 13 and possibly higher if you use someone like Asphyxious the Hellbringer who can give them concealment (triggering prowl) and an additional +2 DEF vs melee attacks from living/non-fire immune troops. DEF 15 for their cost is pretty annoying to remove. I don't expect them to have much in the way of damage output however. I use them as zone jammers or keeping the opponent busy until the rest of my forces can do something meaningful. A true 10 pt throwaway unit.
The skornergy comes from some of their abilities. Combined melee and finisher make you think that they can deal some damage as a second wave, and they can in certain circumstances, but their speed and defenses make you want to jam with them as your first wave. Their abilities make them a bit bi-polar, but I guess that is what we are calling options?
When mechanithralls were more expensive and had a worse DEF, the differences were more clear between the two units, now I think mechanithralls outshine them in almost all aspects.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Dec 7, 2017 17:14:50 GMT
If you want to have a look at a unit that does absolutely nothing, look at Carrion Thralls. It's funny how the whole Cryx community was fawning over them at release and now you see them literally nowhere. They’re a great jam unit, same speed as Satyxis Raiders with double the bodies for the same cost. Only problem is Infernal Machines has nothing that’s really worth delivering. Mechanithralls & Bile Thralls suck. Soul Hunters are okay, but they’re so fast & they don’t need a screening unit that’s slower then they are. Hyper aggressive on fragile Cryx jacks is pretty terrible, & it’s almost always wrong to move when it’s triggered. There’s no real reason to play jack heavy in this theme since both Black Industries & Slaughter Fleet run Warjacks better, & screening your jacks with Carrion Thralls isn’t worth giving up Carapace or Gang Fighter. Carrion Thralls would likely see quite a bit of play if they were included in literally any other theme force, but they unfortunately got stranded in our worst.
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