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Post by davycannonhound on Nov 13, 2017 6:36:09 GMT
Hey there Skornians(?). Legion player here. I often times find myself looking at other faction's stuff and saying "wow thats cool", or "man thats really good!" then looking at my faction's "version" (if you will) and saying ew. I often times nitpick things too, and talk about how bad stuff is etc. etc. However, I got to thinking... There's a saying that the grass is always greener on the other side. More than likely (not all of the time, but probably a lot), I'm looking at tools other people have, wishing I had access to them, and taking for granted things that my faction has that other people may not have.
So, I've decided to get an outside perspective from other players of different factions. What do y'all, as Skorne players, see in Legion's stable of pieces that make you think "hey I wish I had that"?
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Nov 13, 2017 6:42:03 GMT
Tyrants. We're Tyrants.
Hmmmm...
Of the top of my head, Slipstream. I want me some Slipstream, and an Abby2 while I'm at it. Forsaken so I can run my battlegroup stupid hot again like in MKII, and some Hellmouths as dessert.
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Post by killroundears on Nov 13, 2017 9:36:05 GMT
Hey there Skornians(?). Legion player here. I often times find myself looking at other faction's stuff and saying "wow thats cool", or "man thats really good!" then looking at my faction's "version" (if you will) and saying ew. I often times nitpick things too, and talk about how bad stuff is etc. etc. However, I got to thinking... There's a saying that the grass is always greener on the other side. More than likely (not all of the time, but probably a lot), I'm looking at tools other people have, wishing I had access to them, and taking for granted things that my faction has that other people may not have. So, I've decided to get an outside perspective from other players of different factions. What do y'all, as Skorne players, see in Legion's stable of pieces that make you think "hey I wish I had that"? Honestly skornes biggest problem is wide anti stealth tech we tend to have it only have individual solutions through extollers. I dont really envy anything in legion except animii like slipstream and def stats on your swordsman vs our swordsman (14 def 》13 def). I also envy the hellmouth. I think legion has a better solo stable though
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Post by bloodsplatterartist on Nov 13, 2017 11:32:31 GMT
Hey there Skornians(?). Legion player here. I often times find myself looking at other faction's stuff and saying "wow thats cool", or "man thats really good!" then looking at my faction's "version" (if you will) and saying ew. I often times nitpick things too, and talk about how bad stuff is etc. etc. However, I got to thinking... There's a saying that the grass is always greener on the other side. More than likely (not all of the time, but probably a lot), I'm looking at tools other people have, wishing I had access to them, and taking for granted things that my faction has that other people may not have. So, I've decided to get an outside perspective from other players of different factions. What do y'all, as Skorne players, see in Legion's stable of pieces that make you think "hey I wish I had that"? Honestly skornes biggest problem is wide anti stealth tech we tend to have it only have individual solutions through extollers. I dont really envy anything in legion except animii like slipstream and def stats on your swordsman vs our swordsman (14 def 》13 def). I also envy the hellmouth. I think legion has a better solo stable though True that. Despite the great utility from the solos we do have the stable feels pretty empty most days.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Nov 13, 2017 13:51:35 GMT
Stuff Legion has that I would love in Skorne: - Good MAT values, especially on beasts. The Neraph comes to mind. I'd put 1-2 in almost any IWH list and some others as well. Caster-independent hit buffs are also a part of it. - Having guns everywhere and the spot removal they bring. - Good FURY values and the control areas they bring. - Great spell lists. There are reasons why Skorne is not allowed to have some of them though. - Specific models like Forsaken, Elkriders or Hellmouth.
My solution: Getting into Legion.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 13, 2017 14:06:36 GMT
Ironically, I got into Skorne because I was fed up with Mk3 Legion. Having played both factions extensively though, he's what I miss when playing Skorne:
MAT fixers. I find this doesn't come up a lot, because Skorne hits so much harder and is generally cheaper to boot before you even account for casters that I find I can usually just boost to hit instead.
Sometimes I miss Slip-stream, but I certainly don't miss paying 14 points to get it (and not much else other than Flare), not when I can pay 15 and get Gladiator who has much the same threat extension function but also does tons of work himself.
You would think that I would miss Eyeless Sight, but between Extollers and the general points inefficiency of Legion shooting beasts, I very rarely notice I don't have it. Maybe there's more of a need to charge through clouds in other metas?
I think that's really it. In pretty much every generalized way (threat extension, infantry spam, armour cracking, anti-shooting, shooting, casters, fury management, theme strength/versatility, etc) I feel like Skorne has Legion beat. There's nothing I miss.
EDIT: I forgot the Hellmouth. Holy crap, I love this model and would love to put it in Skorne. But because it was denied entirely to all Legion themes I kinda forgot it existed... Even now the only theme I would consider it in relies on Ogrun, which are just not good so...
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on Nov 13, 2017 15:27:25 GMT
I play (and lose) against Legion the most. It's basically just me and two other guys in my meta. We play weekly, but yeah, I face legion every week. I wouldn't say there's one model I'm particularly jealous of, but the faction as a whole seems very impressive. I know that the Legion player is better than I am, and so I'm not of the opinion that I just have a worse faction, but onto my thoughts.
Nearly universal Flight/pathfinder and Eyeless Sight are the biggest thing. It's a little bit like Legion is playing a different game than everyone else. If you haven't dabbled in another faction, you might take it for granted. Obviously, terrain is mitigated very easily in Legion, but it's also easy to take for granted being able to move through your own models all the time, and ignoring a lot of defensive tech like stealth and blind and your own knockdown.
The general stat skew towards def, spd, and accuracy comes out in your favor, I think, too, as being (at least) 3 points higher in spd and def and a point higher in accuracy is better overall than just having 2 more arm and a couple more health boxes like Skorne does.
Also, PP sprinkled all the legion models with lots little additional effects like assault, push/pulls, battle wizard, quick work, and crit effects that have steadily made me appreciate these seemingly innocuous rules that might not trigger every activation, but add up a lot over the course of a game. On top of that, guns, especially sprays, are included on tons of models where it's not their primary purpose, but I can attest they can do a lot of work when need to.
Lastly, wraithbane is always making me sad. When everything has eyeless sight, there's much less defensive tech for me to rely on, and what I can rely on is ignored by Wraithbane.
Slipstream is definitely a big upgrade to Rush. Not only is the animus on a far cheaper/efficient beast, but it's a cheaper animus, and adds nonlinear threat vectors.
I think arm stacking is the one thing that I've managed to use most effectively against legion. Not like it's shut down my Legion opponent every time, but it's been the most effective.
I would recommend that you stay in Legion. "Grass is greener" is likely at play.
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Post by davycannonhound on Nov 13, 2017 15:37:14 GMT
- Having guns everywhere and the spot removal they bring. This is always a fun topic. All but, three of our guns are typed. One of our untyped guns is attached to a character. Having typed guns and no immunities is... Annoying, to say the least. Especially when we run into trolls or Menoth.
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Post by davycannonhound on Nov 13, 2017 15:39:04 GMT
EDIT: I forgot the Hellmouth. Holy crap, I love this model and would love to put it in Skorne. But because it was denied entirely to all Legion themes I kinda forgot it existed... Even now the only theme I would consider it in relies on Ogrun, which are just not good so... Oddly enough the Hellmouth is available in Ravens, which is... weird, to say the least.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Nov 13, 2017 16:00:29 GMT
Sure, untyped would be better. But when sniping solos or contesting pieces you usually do not care about damage types aside from magical.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 13, 2017 16:58:35 GMT
EDIT: I forgot the Hellmouth. Holy crap, I love this model and would love to put it in Skorne. But because it was denied entirely to all Legion themes I kinda forgot it existed... Even now the only theme I would consider it in relies on Ogrun, which are just not good so... Oddly enough the Hellmouth is available in Ravens, which is... weird, to say the least. Yes, but I stopped playing Legion before this was so. And even so, I can't find any Ravens lists I would want them in. That theme is so fast but lacking in hitting power, it feels like the pulls wouldn't be helpful. But yes, it's really weird (from a fluff perspective) that Ravens has Hellmouth.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 13, 2017 17:18:18 GMT
I play (and lose) against Legion the most. It's basically just me and two other guys in my meta. We play weekly, but yeah, I face legion every week. I wouldn't say there's one model I'm particularly jealous of, but the faction as a whole seems very impressive. I know that the Legion player is better than I am, and so I'm not of the opinion that I just have a worse faction, but onto my thoughts. Nearly universal Flight/pathfinder and Eyeless Sight are the biggest thing. It's a little bit like Legion is playing a different game than everyone else. If you haven't dabbled in another faction, you might take it for granted. Obviously, terrain is mitigated very easily in Legion, but it's also easy to take for granted being able to move through your own models all the time, and ignoring a lot of defensive tech like stealth and blind and your own knockdown. The general stat skew towards def, spd, and accuracy comes out in your favor, I think, too, as being (at least) 3 points higher in spd and def and a point higher in accuracy is better overall than just having 2 more arm and a couple more health boxes like Skorne does. Also, PP sprinkled all the legion models with lots little additional effects like assault, push/pulls, battle wizard, quick work, and crit effects that have steadily made me appreciate these seemingly innocuous rules that might not trigger every activation, but add up a lot over the course of a game. On top of that, guns, especially sprays, are included on tons of models where it's not their primary purpose, but I can attest they can do a lot of work when need to. Lastly, wraithbane is always making me sad. When everything has eyeless sight, there's much less defensive tech for me to rely on, and what I can rely on is ignored by Wraithbane. Slipstream is definitely a big upgrade to Rush. Not only is the animus on a far cheaper/efficient beast, but it's a cheaper animus, and adds nonlinear threat vectors. I think arm stacking is the one thing that I've managed to use most effectively against legion. Not like it's shut down my Legion opponent every time, but it's been the most effective. I would recommend that you stay in Legion. "Grass is greener" is likely at play. Whenever I miss Legion's speed and flight, I put in some Archidons, who I think out-Legion them, that hit stronger, are cheaper, and Crit-Pitch having lots of fun applications on its own. Seraphs are 14 points. Gladiators are 15. That's not "much cheaper", and while it is a cheaper animus, I find Paingivers much easier and cheaper to use fury management so I don't really miss it. Non-linear is awesome, though, and I miss it's ability to help you run away and dodge free strikes. The Gladiator can do good work on its own and doesn't die to a stiff breeze, so I consider this kind of a wash. Also Grand Slam should not be underestimated. For every shenanigan I pulled off with Slipstream, I have done the same with super-slams from my Gladiators. Wraithbane is good, but I find that Skorne hits so hard I don't miss it. Having it used against me though... That really hurts. Though I think some of this is mitigated by the very high cost of Legion's ranged beasts, when fighting their shooting I usually outnumber them enough to not worry about the extra hurt I will take on the approach. I miss it was I make beast-based shooting lists though. In my experience, the grass really IS greener in the desert. Unless you want to play a strictly assassination game instead of attrition or control, in which case you will do much better in Legion.
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Post by killroundears on Nov 13, 2017 19:45:48 GMT
I play (and lose) against Legion the most. It's basically just me and two other guys in my meta. We play weekly, but yeah, I face legion every week. I wouldn't say there's one model I'm particularly jealous of, but the faction as a whole seems very impressive. I know that the Legion player is better than I am, and so I'm not of the opinion that I just have a worse faction, but onto my thoughts. Nearly universal Flight/pathfinder and Eyeless Sight are the biggest thing. It's a little bit like Legion is playing a different game than everyone else. If you haven't dabbled in another faction, you might take it for granted. Obviously, terrain is mitigated very easily in Legion, but it's also easy to take for granted being able to move through your own models all the time, and ignoring a lot of defensive tech like stealth and blind and your own knockdown. The general stat skew towards def, spd, and accuracy comes out in your favor, I think, too, as being (at least) 3 points higher in spd and def and a point higher in accuracy is better overall than just having 2 more arm and a couple more health boxes like Skorne does. Also, PP sprinkled all the legion models with lots little additional effects like assault, push/pulls, battle wizard, quick work, and crit effects that have steadily made me appreciate these seemingly innocuous rules that might not trigger every activation, but add up a lot over the course of a game. On top of that, guns, especially sprays, are included on tons of models where it's not their primary purpose, but I can attest they can do a lot of work when need to. Lastly, wraithbane is always making me sad. When everything has eyeless sight, there's much less defensive tech for me to rely on, and what I can rely on is ignored by Wraithbane. Slipstream is definitely a big upgrade to Rush. Not only is the animus on a far cheaper/efficient beast, but it's a cheaper animus, and adds nonlinear threat vectors. I think arm stacking is the one thing that I've managed to use most effectively against legion. Not like it's shut down my Legion opponent every time, but it's been the most effective. I would recommend that you stay in Legion. "Grass is greener" is likely at play. Whenever I miss Legion's speed and flight, I put in some Archidons, who I think out-Legion them, that hit stronger, are cheaper, and Crit-Pitch having lots of fun applications on its own. Seraphs are 14 points. Gladiators are 15. That's not "much cheaper", and while it is a cheaper animus, I find Paingivers much easier and cheaper to use fury management so I don't really miss it. Non-linear is awesome, though, and I miss it's ability to help you run away and dodge free strikes. The Gladiator can do good work on its own and doesn't die to a stiff breeze, so I consider this kind of a wash. Also Grand Slam should not be underestimated. For every shenanigan I pulled off with Slipstream, I have done the same with super-slams from my Gladiators. Wraithbane is good, but I find that Skorne hits so hard I don't miss it. Having it used against me though... That really hurts. Though I think some of this is mitigated by the very high cost of Legion's ranged beasts, when fighting their shooting I usually outnumber them enough to not worry about the extra hurt I will take on the approach. I miss it was I make beast-based shooting lists though. In my experience, the grass really IS greener in the desert. Unless you want to play a strictly assassination game instead of attrition or control, in which case you will do much better in Legion. I'm not even convinced that legion are generally the better assassins. Morghoul of all flavours has never failed me at murdering people either directly through his blessed sword, or indirectly by setting it up. Mordikaar gets hilarious angles with voids and sprays. Rasheth can dumpster their ARM stat as well as lower def. One of Zaal2's specific win conditions is the opponent kills just a little bit too much of his army and he opens up a spell machine gun that'd make vayl2 blush. Not to mention the threat of cats under zaal1 feat and last stand (4d6 to hit, 4d6 pow 12 x2 for each cat), or Makeda2 dropping her knockdown spell. Mak1 is pretty adept at it too because you can have a SPD8 molik karn get Rush, charge 13", side step twice (currently at 19" threat) and then get jackhammered up to 4-6 times depending on if you want to carnage and if marketh was still alive to upkeep for you I've had a great time warpathing heavies into casters that jalaam shoots twice too at RAT9 POW12-14. Great example was Jalaam shot kaelyssa twice with prey dealing 10 damage after focus. my cannoneer whiffed its shot at her. i warpathed my bronzeback who received rush. the bronzeback then charged his 9" (threat 13) and put up beatback and punched a ret jack for a couple inches directly back to come into melee with kae on like 5-6 boxes, and it just took one boosted to hit swing at PS19 to end her life I mean, assassinating is never my prime win condition unless the match up is dire because i find it can be extremely hard to actively plan to assassinate when your target could be as hard as Vlad1 under blood of kings or super tanky or just end up in a favourable terrain position where LOS and cover come into play in their favour. But when i do have to kill something dead... they die pretty well.
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Nov 13, 2017 20:04:59 GMT
Whenever I miss Legion's speed and flight, I put in some Archidons, who I think out-Legion them, that hit stronger, are cheaper, and Crit-Pitch having lots of fun applications on its own. Seraphs are 14 points. Gladiators are 15. That's not "much cheaper", and while it is a cheaper animus, I find Paingivers much easier and cheaper to use fury management so I don't really miss it. Non-linear is awesome, though, and I miss it's ability to help you run away and dodge free strikes. The Gladiator can do good work on its own and doesn't die to a stiff breeze, so I consider this kind of a wash. Also Grand Slam should not be underestimated. For every shenanigan I pulled off with Slipstream, I have done the same with super-slams from my Gladiators. Wraithbane is good, but I find that Skorne hits so hard I don't miss it. Having it used against me though... That really hurts. Though I think some of this is mitigated by the very high cost of Legion's ranged beasts, when fighting their shooting I usually outnumber them enough to not worry about the extra hurt I will take on the approach. I miss it was I make beast-based shooting lists though. In my experience, the grass really IS greener in the desert. Unless you want to play a strictly assassination game instead of attrition or control, in which case you will do much better in Legion. I'm not even convinced that legion are generally the better assassins. Morghoul of all flavours has never failed me at murdering people either directly through his blessed sword, or indirectly by setting it up. Mordikaar gets hilarious angles with voids and sprays. Rasheth can dumpster their ARM stat as well as lower def. One of Zaal2's specific win conditions is the opponent kills just a little bit too much of his army and he opens up a spell machine gun that'd make vayl2 blush. Not to mention the threat of cats under zaal1 feat and last stand (4d6 to hit, 4d6 pow 12 x2 for each cat), or Makeda2 dropping her knockdown spell. Mak1 is pretty adept at it too because you can have a SPD8 molik karn get Rush, charge 13", side step twice (currently at 19" threat) and then get jackhammered up to 4-6 times depending on if you want to carnage and if marketh was still alive to upkeep for you I've had a great time warpathing heavies into casters that jalaam shoots twice too at RAT9 POW12-14. Great example was Jalaam shot kaelyssa twice with prey dealing 10 damage after focus. my cannoneer whiffed its shot at her. i warpathed my bronzeback who received rush. the bronzeback then charged his 9" (threat 13) and put up beatback and punched a ret jack for a couple inches directly back to come into melee with kae on like 5-6 boxes, and it just took one boosted to hit swing at PS19 to end her life I mean, assassinating is never my prime win condition unless the match up is dire because i find it can be extremely hard to actively plan to assassinate when your target could be as hard as Vlad1 under blood of kings or super tanky or just end up in a favourable terrain position where LOS and cover come into play in their favour. But when i do have to kill something dead... they die pretty well. I pretty much agree with this 100%, but I also realize that I've never been a very good assassination player, so I assume there is just assassination tech exclusive to Legion that puts them over the top. Mainly because everyone says so. But I sure don't see it.
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Post by davycannonhound on Nov 14, 2017 1:59:51 GMT
I'm not even convinced that legion are generally the better assassins. Morghoul of all flavours has never failed me at murdering people either directly through his blessed sword, or indirectly by setting it up. Mordikaar gets hilarious angles with voids and sprays. Rasheth can dumpster their ARM stat as well as lower def. One of Zaal2's specific win conditions is the opponent kills just a little bit too much of his army and he opens up a spell machine gun that'd make vayl2 blush. Not to mention the threat of cats under zaal1 feat and last stand (4d6 to hit, 4d6 pow 12 x2 for each cat), or Makeda2 dropping her knockdown spell. Mak1 is pretty adept at it too because you can have a SPD8 molik karn get Rush, charge 13", side step twice (currently at 19" threat) and then get jackhammered up to 4-6 times depending on if you want to carnage and if marketh was still alive to upkeep for you I've had a great time warpathing heavies into casters that jalaam shoots twice too at RAT9 POW12-14. Great example was Jalaam shot kaelyssa twice with prey dealing 10 damage after focus. my cannoneer whiffed its shot at her. i warpathed my bronzeback who received rush. the bronzeback then charged his 9" (threat 13) and put up beatback and punched a ret jack for a couple inches directly back to come into melee with kae on like 5-6 boxes, and it just took one boosted to hit swing at PS19 to end her life I mean, assassinating is never my prime win condition unless the match up is dire because i find it can be extremely hard to actively plan to assassinate when your target could be as hard as Vlad1 under blood of kings or super tanky or just end up in a favourable terrain position where LOS and cover come into play in their favour. But when i do have to kill something dead... they die pretty well. I pretty much agree with this 100%, but I also realize that I've never been a very good assassination player, so I assume there is just assassination tech exclusive to Legion that puts them over the top. Mainly because everyone says so. But I sure don't see it. We don't really have anymore tech for it than anyone else, but its the only thing Legion is capable of winning with on a very consistant basis. All but three of our warlocks are capable of assassination and nothing else (either directly or by helping the army). Our other four warlocks lean towards scenario/attrition, something Legion doesn't do very well.
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