domo
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 8
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Post by domo on Oct 6, 2017 14:03:29 GMT
So, I have played against a few opponents and literally watched the light in their eyes die as the game goes on, a complete break in morale.
I like to think of myself as a friendly player, who is not a "win at all costs" kinda guy. I am happy to let my opponents take back minor things (such as order of activation - "forgot to activate my choir, first" etc), as it promotes a more interesting game and I'd rather not win over a minor lapse in attention, when I don't deserve the win in general. In short, I play for fun, and realise that my opponent also having fun is a vital part of the equation.
Despite my easy going nature, I have had opponents who feel that Grymkin are the fun-suckers of the game.
I feel that largely, this feeling will recede as people get better at playing in to Grymkin (what is obvious to me is not obvious to my opponent as I play my force all the time, and they see it once or twice a week). The issue is getting to that place without burning out my opponents and forcing them away.
Has anyone run into this and got any tips on easing the pain for people playing against Grymkin?
Currently my best idea is to print a second set of Arcana cards that are almost comically large and provide them to my opponents for them to keep on their side of the table - I have always answered questions about my Arcana and handed the cards over for them to read, but I figure if would be easier if they had their own set that they could consult freely and easily.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 6, 2017 15:14:35 GMT
I actually find grymkin to be incredibly fun to play against, one of the more engaging armies for both players who are active during your opponents turn due to arcana and they bring a lot of thinking for both players. It's like a minigame just trying to trigger and avoid arcana haha I love it. I would recommend having a spare set of arcana for your opponents if you are into the friendly gaming. I tend to have the same mindset on gaming. I want my opponent and myself to have fun, we are playing with toy soldiers after all I think of all the things that can be an NPE grymkin are not very high on the list. Maybe try running some janky lists for a while. My brother is more into the game for the fun of it than to be competitive so I tend to play lists I would never take to a regular game night or to a tournament because its more about having fun than being optimized. The best way to ease the pain is to try and teach your opponents how to actively think about and avoid arcana. Remind them "hey, this will trigger this arcana" and let them take their time while they learn.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 6, 2017 16:44:17 GMT
I don't play Grymkin and I see that light die on a regular occasion. It's not your fault or the fault of the faction. But I understand the sentiment. It makes me feel bad and then I feel obligated to make bad decisions to let them salvage their game and mood.
There is something to be said for making sure your opponent knows everything your models can do. But you can't play their turn for them.
I really want to actually get to play against grymkin. It seems like it would be great fun.
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 6, 2017 23:18:22 GMT
Your faction requires a very specific ability in order to play into it well and not every faction or caster has easy access to that ability. Its going to be unfun for a lot of people til that changes.
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Post by LoS Jaden on Oct 6, 2017 23:29:34 GMT
Your faction requires a very specific ability in order to play into it well and not every faction or caster has easy access to that ability. Its going to be unfun for a lot of people til that changes. Which ability is that?
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 7, 2017 1:00:46 GMT
RFP.
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Lahn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 100
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Post by Lahn on Oct 7, 2017 1:14:21 GMT
Disagree. Knowledge/experience of Arcana triggers aids playing against Grymkin considerably, as does proper target selection. Baiting Arcana is a thing. A large number of Grymkin lists also struggle with live SR2017 scenarios and control elements. OP, what factions have you been playing against?
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 7, 2017 1:17:32 GMT
Disagree. Knowledge/experience of Arcana triggers aids playing against Grymkin considerably, as does proper target selection. Baiting Arcana is a thing. A large number of Grymkin lists also struggle with live SR2017 scenarios and control elements. OP, what factions have you been playing against? Git Gud is not going to make people enjoy playing vs grymkin any more than it makes them enjoy playing against denny1 Edit: on a productive angle, if the game is just for fun OP, just ask yourself "If I was playing against this and didn't have X ability (where X ability is a lot of magical attacks, or a solid amount of RFP tech) would it feel like a game or like work?" and adjust our list accordingly. If people want a competitive tournament-esque game, they need to get over it because the faction is new and popular.
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Lahn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 100
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Post by Lahn on Oct 7, 2017 1:36:28 GMT
Disagree. Knowledge/experience of Arcana triggers aids playing against Grymkin considerably, as does proper target selection. Baiting Arcana is a thing. A large number of Grymkin lists also struggle with live SR2017 scenarios and control elements. OP, what factions have you been playing against? Git Gud is not going to make people enjoy playing vs grymkin any more than it makes them enjoy playing against denny1 Edit: on a productive angle, if the game is just for fun OP, just ask yourself "If I was playing against this and didn't have X ability (where X ability is a lot of magical attacks, or a solid amount of RFP tech) would it feel like a game or like work?" and adjust our list accordingly. If people want a competitive tournament-esque game, they need to get over it because the faction is new and popular. Encourage scenario play and control models is "Git Gud"? OP says he allows "minor takebacks". That's not "maximum fun play", that fun in the context of broadly holding to the rules and making not shit lists.
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Post by mcdermott on Oct 7, 2017 1:59:10 GMT
I mean, its the polite way of saying it but yeah, its basically what you're saying, and its fine, but its not going to make them ENJOY the game any more which was the crux of the issue OP brought up. I dont know what lists he's playing but the % of the playerbase that ENJOYS going into denny1 ghostfleet is pretty small. (yes i realize grymkin are not near that good but they have a similar ability to bring lists that require specialized tools to answer and not every faction has good access to those tools).
I'm just saying, know your playgroup a little.
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Lahn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 100
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Post by Lahn on Oct 7, 2017 2:04:57 GMT
I've achieved a new affinity with the platform of Shoe now.
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Post by ashurbanipal on Oct 7, 2017 14:36:53 GMT
I usually try to follow the rule: Try not to let your opponent run into the opened knife.
Basically not very different from what you would do in a game with a new player, telling him: "If you stand there i can shoot/charge you", "If you stand there my AoEs are gonna hurt your infantery really much", "If you don't go in the zone i will score" and so on. Same with the Arcana: "Remember, if you do this i will do that which might lead to this or that".
Generally, people are mostly really happy to play against me and the different Grymkin casters, as it helps them to get the faction to know and be better prepared to face them in a tournament. Playing the 100x time against Heavy Metal, the Fleet or Axis (just examples) kills the most people's joy more often than losing to, but also learning about, the Grymkin.
My Meta is highly competetive, though, might be different elsewere.
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Post by trollsareblue on Oct 7, 2017 17:32:51 GMT
Just tell people what you'll be playing in advance. If they can't make a list that gives them a chance, there's not much more you can do.
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Post by beaker on Oct 7, 2017 23:11:28 GMT
I would say get them to make 2 list.
You can do 1 or 2 list then pick one before they pick, u can even talk about why they picked that list before you start.
I have had a few games where i am the person looking at packing up top of turn two before and i find the 2 list system seems to help a lot. (New skorne tiers are nasty)
Also as some one said get a copy of arcana for them and make it clear what the triggers are.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 8, 2017 1:39:01 GMT
Not really. You can beat grymkin without rfp.
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