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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 5, 2017 8:42:08 GMT
Ah how the mighty appear to have fallen! When was the last time you saw Caine 2 on the table? It is widely accepted that the dynamic update consigned him to the trash forever. However with a few tweaks I could see taking him again.
Now clearly we cannot go back to 'Trick Shots for days', as that was clearly unacceptable, the problem is Grievous Wounds and Black Penny were caught in the nerf bat crossfire.
I would propose removing trick shot and the empowered shot rule, and giving him back magic bullet. That would still allow him to contribute meaningfully regardless of whether he is doing work personally, or hanging back out of danger.
The other change I would make is give him the Arcane Tempest tag, that would mean he could upkeep spells like Bullet Dodger and Heightened Reflexes on himself in SotT, giving him a bit more focus efficiency, it also does not increase his max potential damage output so there is no issue there.
What do you guys think?
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 5, 2017 9:17:03 GMT
I like Trick Shot, but the idea of a balancing buff that only works in one theme doesn't appeal to me; he should be able to function effectively outside of themes as well as in more than one theme.
I don't know how to balance him, I think the question might need to be "what kind of playstyle should he have?". He's clearly not a buff-bot or a control caster. Traditionally I think he's been a super-solo/assassin, but I guess it's hard to balance a ranged super-solo caster?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 5, 2017 9:26:53 GMT
I like Trick Shot, but the idea of a balancing buff that only works in one theme doesn't appeal to me; he should be able to function effectively outside of themes as well as in more than one theme. I don't know how to balance him, I think the question might need to be "what kind of playstyle should he have?". He's clearly not a buff-bot or a control caster. Traditionally I think he's been a super-solo/assassin, but I guess it's hard to balance a ranged super-solo caster? I like trick shot as well, but there does not seem to be a happy medium between him having it on every shot (which is too powerful), and having to spend a focus for it (which is too weak), I have seen people suggest he does not need to spend focus on his initial shots, only his bought ones, but that seems clunky.
Magic Bullet allows him to achieve a similar effect, just not in such high volumes. Also I don't think there is anything wrong with pushing him towards being taken in SotT, he is a gun mage after all
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Post by cygnarstronk on Oct 5, 2017 10:20:42 GMT
special shots only on initials, problem solved. He has been overnerfed badly-
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 5, 2017 10:26:53 GMT
I like Trick Shot, but the idea of a balancing buff that only works in one theme doesn't appeal to me; he should be able to function effectively outside of themes as well as in more than one theme. I don't know how to balance him, I think the question might need to be "what kind of playstyle should he have?". He's clearly not a buff-bot or a control caster. Traditionally I think he's been a super-solo/assassin, but I guess it's hard to balance a ranged super-solo caster? I like trick shot as well, but there does not seem to be a happy medium between him having it on every shot (which is too powerful), and having to spend a focus for it (which is too weak), I have seen people suggest he does not need to spend focus on his initial shots, only his bought ones, but that seems clunky.
Magic Bullet allows him to achieve a similar effect, just not in such high volumes. Also I don't think there is anything wrong with pushing him towards being taken in SotT, he is a gun mage after all
Sorry, I meant that I like Magic Bullet and I support your idea of him getting it back, somehow wrote Trick Shot instead. Perhaps if he had Magic Bullet but it was cheaper when he cast it on himself, then you would get a balance of both options?
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Post by Soul Samurai on Oct 5, 2017 10:29:49 GMT
special shots only on initials, problem solved. He has been overnerfed badly- This makes a lot of sense.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Oct 5, 2017 11:03:41 GMT
I have played Caine2 a couple of times since the nerf (mostly due to a lengthy sojourn into minions) and he was okay, he liked the Hurricane and was very useful playing into Grymkin because being able to zap gremlin swarms as you like and turn off healing is really useful, even if it costs you focus. However I can't deny that the change irrevocably diminished him and after having been given something the pain of it's removal hurts.
Personally I would just remove trick shot from his attack types and replace it with ward breaker. (He's an assassin so it make sense he can see through your pesky buffs.) Remove empowered shot and just got back to being able to freely choose an attack type. I would not change his spell list.
So long as Bastion Falk keeps his shot type that buffs magic attack damage I think Caine2 could still come back and see play because POW 14 pistols can get a lot of work done.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Oct 5, 2017 11:27:21 GMT
I have played Caine2 a couple of times since the nerf (mostly due to a lengthy sojourn into minions) and he was okay, he liked the Hurricane and was very useful playing into Grymkin because being able to zap gremlin swarms as you like and turn off healing is really useful, even if it costs you focus. However I can't deny that the change irrevocably diminished him and after having been given something the pain of it's removal hurts. Personally I would just remove trick shot from his attack types and replace it with ward breaker. (He's an assassin so it make sense he can see through your pesky buffs.) Remove empowered shot and just got back to being able to freely choose an attack type. I would not change his spell list. So long as Bastion Falk keeps his shot type that buffs magic attack damage I think Caine2 could still come back and see play because POW 14 pistols can get a lot of work done. I am fairly certain Falk with keep Rune Marked, in the CID design notes they said it was a key feature. Also upkeeping FFE on him for free seems nice, fully boosted rat 8 pow 12 spray. The main draw of Caine 2 for me is the ranged Grievous Wounds, as I think that would compliment a SotT list very nicely, it is just a shame Grievous Wounds is being penalised because of Trick Shot.
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Post by darkangeldentist on Oct 5, 2017 11:40:17 GMT
I'm glad to hear that Falk will likely keep Run Marked. I'd actually been thinking of putting bullet dodger on him (since reciprocate becomes much more likely then) and keep fire for effect on something else. Caine still quite like heightened reflexes to prevent knockdown and stationary which are arguably bigger threats to him than anything else. Ranged grievous wounds is lovely and even with the penalty of empowered shot is situationally worth it, particularly when facing hordes lists. He works quite nicely in the trencher theme too and whilst blockhouse is thoroughly mediocre, girded and trenches are things that Caine welcomes whole heartedly.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Oct 5, 2017 12:44:33 GMT
Caine 2 is meant to be a 1 man army. He is meant to be a dodging, shooting, teleporting monster. THAT is what I want on the table.
So firstly I would like to point out some things that we can already do in faction in order to put where his ranged power should sit.
Haley 3 has access to 3 Range 10 Pow 13 shots, 1 Range 12 pow 12 shot and up to 2 Range 10 Pow 12 aoe shots (weapon Master with additional bounces) and the focus to boost it all with Def 18 Armour 14 and Incorp on most of the members.
Nemo 3 has a Range ctrl (so mostly 16") pow 10 with D3 bounces and can easily do something similar with Chain lightning twice more. I play Nemo 3 often and this guy tears units to shreds just through his gunshots. He can do this will upkeeping 2 spells, one gives his entire battlegroup a host of defensive buffs and an armour buff.
So we have casters who have exceptional ranged tech as well as great army support. This is Caine 2's competition.
So with this in mind:
Caine 2 Cygnar Arcane Tempest Warcaster
SPD: 7 STR: 5 MAT: 4 RAT: 9 DEF: 17 ARM: 13
Boxes: 16 FOCUS: 6
Gunfighter, Pistoleer, true sight
2xSpellstorm pistol: Range 12" Pow 12 Magical, Reload: Infinity
Rune Shots: - Electro leap - Headshot (Models boxed cannot gain tough and are RFP'd) - Ward Breaker
Spells:
Bullet Dodger Heightened Reflexes Gatecrasher Hot Shot
Feat: Overkill
After Resolving each ranged attack that hits an enemy model, Caine gains a cumulative +1 to his Spellstorm pistols attack damage rolls for one turn.
Main Changes: - Arcane tempest (make him able to upkeep for free in Sons of the Tempest [change Sons to accomodate this]) - Gain Pistoleer (might be through Sons of the Tempest or Standard. Gatecrasher implies getting close and personal should be his deal and this would be a *huge* risk for reward play) - Change Rune shots from Trick shot to Electro leap, Grievous to Headshot and Black Penny to Ward Breaker. - Change FFE (a spell with little good home in the faction) to Hotshot.
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Oct 5, 2017 13:31:16 GMT
I really do like the idea of giving him pistoleer - it makes it worth it to actually go for the gatecrasher assassination, which I don't recall having ever seen happen.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Oct 5, 2017 13:45:42 GMT
Haven't seen cain2 anywhere since his nerf. Miss him since he is my favorite fluff wise and model wise.
He should be easy to fix. Change empowered so he can choose a ammo type on his initial attacks without spending extra focus, and give his feat RFP back. Done.
The other option would be to take away the empowered rule, and change trick shot for RFP.
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Post by Aegis on Oct 5, 2017 14:20:06 GMT
special shots only on initials, problem solved. He has been overnerfed badly- I totally agree. That was also my proposed change at the time. You don't usually need more than 2 grevious wound shots or black pennies, and 2 free magic bullets are enough to let him do few tricks and kill some supports without letting him wipe entire units. That version would put him in the perfect spot in my opionion. Adding RFP on his feat would also give him a good niche against ghost fleet or similar lists, without making him more powerful in most cases.
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Post by snarlyyow on Oct 5, 2017 17:16:07 GMT
I like the idea of giving Caine2 the Arcane Tempest tag. Seems good. A couple other options:
-Have Caine pay 1 Focus to gain an attack type for the duration of his turn, not one focus every time he shoots. -Give Caine 4 shot types, not three, allow him to use them for free, but only once per turn. -Have Caine not pay for shot types but limit him to Reload2. Keep his feat the same where he can become ROF infinity.
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Post by snarlyyow on Oct 5, 2017 18:42:02 GMT
I really do like the idea of giving him pistoleer - it makes it worth it to actually go for the gatecrasher assassination, which I don't recall having ever seen happen. I've done it.
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