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Post by gobber on Oct 5, 2017 1:08:02 GMT
What are people's thoughts on Blythe and Bull since their point drop last week? I can at least see putting them in lists occasionally when trying to maximize Advance moves in Irregulars... They still don't seem quite as powerful as eliminators, but their pricing doesn't seem totally out of whack anymore. Can anyone think of a place for them?
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706 
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Post by shoe on Oct 5, 2017 1:26:02 GMT
Five Point units are good in Sr 2017 so there's that.
you will never get me jazzed over d3 shots but it better than taryn sorta
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Post by mydnight on Oct 5, 2017 4:00:12 GMT
Decent with Ashlynn on feat for the knockdown. Takedown can also be useful I guess. We have such good solos at 5 points it's going to be tough unless you really need a unit though and even then in Irregulars I still prefer eliminators, especially with damiano/macbain.
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Post by drakeraids on Oct 5, 2017 4:28:00 GMT
I take them when I have five points left over and I've already taken two units of Eliminators/can't take Eliminators. Which is, to be fair, more often than I took them previously. Getting five points of work out of them over the course of a game is not an unreasonable proposition, take down can be situationally useful as well. Small units that can score zones are also a premium right now, so that's helpful.
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Post by gobber on Oct 5, 2017 4:31:33 GMT
There's a lot of competition in that low point unit band. Most of my Irregulars lists end with 2x Eliminators and Aiyana and Holt these days. Horgenhold Artillery, Herne & Jonne, and the Commodore seem to be their most direct competition.
One thing it does enable is Gorten with 7 advance moving heavies (4 bashers, three drillers, all of the above except commodore, plus 4 free things of choice).
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Oct 10, 2017 15:15:35 GMT
I feel like people who like Idrians love these guys and people who don't struggle to find a reason to include them. 1 point hasn't made the difference for me yet, but its certainly possible.
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Lahn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 100
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Post by Lahn on Oct 11, 2017 23:05:28 GMT
I struggle to find hte impetus to try them when I Hernne and Jonne are the same bracket, are proven and can do top of 1 drift shenanigans.
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 12, 2017 0:52:18 GMT
Pricing doesn't make a model functional, pricing makes it desirable. Functionality is about if it can do a job or not.
Not having them, I cannot speak for their functionality, either way, though.
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Post by gobber on Oct 12, 2017 1:18:43 GMT
Pricing doesn't make a model functional, pricing makes it desirable. Functionality is about if it can do a job or not. Not having them, I cannot speak for their functionality, either way, though. Price can absolutely affect functionality by changing the job expected of them. Steelheads are functional chaff infantry at 11pts but would not be at 15. Even if Blythe and Bull aren't a terribly functional combat unit, they're approaching a price at which they function as contesting models that also do a bit of work (whether or not they're "there" is still up for debate). |
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Oct 12, 2017 2:20:16 GMT
i waiting to see what sort of lalalese units come out to decide if i shall buy them but they are better than taryn at 5 pts in lalalese resistance so they could see some play there as cheap scoring.
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Oct 12, 2017 13:37:48 GMT
My list building for this weekend required a 5 point unit. Eliminators got the call.
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 13, 2017 14:51:33 GMT
Pricing doesn't make a model functional, pricing makes it desirable. Functionality is about if it can do a job or not. Not having them, I cannot speak for their functionality, either way, though. Price can absolutely affect functionality by changing the job expected of them. Steelheads are functional chaff infantry at 11pts but would not be at 15. Even if Blythe and Bull aren't a terribly functional combat unit, they're approaching a price at which they function as contesting models that also do a bit of work (whether or not they're "there" is still up for debate). Do not confuse desirability with functionality. 15 points for a chaff unit like Halberdiers is undesirable, it wouldn't change the fact that their job is mainly to slow down an effective enemy unit on the board. Stats and skills determine what a unit's function is. Their points determine their desirability. Lowering their points doesn't change what they DO (functionality), it only changes where they can fit in (desirability). What do you expect Blythe and Bull to do? Can they do it? Point changes alter nothing from this perspective. However, it can change their desirability for people to start playing with them to find out what they are wanting them to do. |
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Post by mydnight on Oct 13, 2017 15:42:21 GMT
Price can absolutely affect functionality by changing the job expected of them. Steelheads are functional chaff infantry at 11pts but would not be at 15. Even if Blythe and Bull aren't a terribly functional combat unit, they're approaching a price at which they function as contesting models that also do a bit of work (whether or not they're "there" is still up for debate). Do not confuse desirability with functionality. 15 points for a chaff unit like Halberdiers is undesirable, it wouldn't change the fact that their job is mainly to slow down an effective enemy unit on the board. Stats and skills determine what a unit's function is. Their points determine their desirability. Lowering their points doesn't change what they DO (functionality), it only changes where they can fit in (desirability). What do you expect Blythe and Bull to do? Can they do it? Point changes alter nothing from this perspective. However, it can change their desirability for people to start playing with them to find out what they are wanting them to do. I get what you're trying to say but any unit that becomes cheap enough can be relegated to chaff duty so your neat separation of the two concepts while helpful, is not always true. Basically powerful units can do what cheap models do to. It's simply the cost that makes it prohibitive for them to do so. |
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Post by Charistoph on Oct 14, 2017 1:05:06 GMT
I get what you're trying to say but any unit that becomes cheap enough can be relegated to chaff duty so your neat separation of the two concepts while helpful, is not always true. Basically powerful units can do what cheap models do to. It's simply the cost that makes it prohibitive for them to do so. No, chaff units are "throw away" units. If Exemplar Bastions suddenly cost like Zealots, it wouldn't change the fact that they are still a hard nut to crack that you expect to lock a unit down, while Zealots are still a unit that you expect to do little more than delay for a turn or two any unit that they engage. |
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Oct 16, 2017 13:57:02 GMT
I think we can all agree that cost and stats interact. Some units have more uses/are more effective for their points cost than others, and this provides them more usability/versatility.
The cost is not the only reason that people play Aiyana and Holt and why no one plays High Shields. Similarly, the Siege Crawler could probably cost a lot more and people would still play it, while people won't play the OAC at anywhere near their current cost.
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