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Post by mydnight on Oct 2, 2017 23:42:29 GMT
Warroom has been updated. SoT is back to end-of-CiD status, making it a viable 'splash'-theme now.
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Post by Aegis on Oct 3, 2017 2:09:31 GMT
OK ? When did that happen. My updated warroom is showing squire and non- charachter warjacks. The printed theme does not indicate that. The printed theme available via the insider the other day does not indicate the Squire and specifies warjacks with ranged weapons. It's an error of the PDF. Warrom already includes Squire and melee jacks, and Pagani confirmed on facebook that they'll correct the document ASAP
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Post by jisidro on Oct 3, 2017 11:21:00 GMT
I asked which should take precedence when they don't say the same thing but didn't get a reply... I had a tournament on Saturday and it didn't come up but it could have... It would be nice to have an official source. snarlyyow: I like your idea. My fav is X points of Y give you Z free points but this would be simpler and would reduce the randomness of how the units/warjacks add up to the point thresholds...
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Post by chewie on Oct 3, 2017 13:55:04 GMT
The big difference is the Squire. You wanna run jacks without a Squire? It gets tough. I'm not saying Aegis is wrong, I see what he's saying and it's valid. HM requires twice as many points of stuff for free stuff, Sons does not. Hell, even 45 points of Gun Mages and 55 points of jacks is still pretty damned good. Aegis' observation that units in heavy metal are now less appealing is really true. I don't know what PP is thinking here. The themes themselves strike me as problematic. The benefits require minmaxing which stifles list composition. I've talked about this elsewhere but I think the way around this is just to give a free model, around 5 points, free for taking a theme. That model should be specific. And what we're seeing here is PP struggle to balance themes around the game. If I were to redo this shit this is sort of how I would balance themes: That's it. See, if you just give free stuff right out of the gates there's no min-maxing. The theme still limits what can be played but it opens up more avenues for list construction. I'd do the same with Storm Division: Yup. This. Holy crap, does that make this whole thing so much simpler while simultaneously opening up list building options. I feel like this would do a great job towards reducing the "same-y" theme lists that list building has led us towards. I like it. I like it a lot.
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Post by snarlyyow on Oct 3, 2017 21:22:39 GMT
Yup. This. Holy crap, does that make this whole thing so much simpler while simultaneously opening up list building options. I feel like this would do a great job towards reducing the "same-y" theme lists that list building has led us towards. I like it. I like it a lot. Yeah, like a free 5-8 points and 3 to 4 thematic benefits. That's it. It's that simple. The other way to do it would be to say something like: A 25 point theme army gets 5 free points. A 50 point theme army gets 9 free points. A 75 point theme army gets 14 free points. etc. etc. But I still think that's way too powerful. I'm more about the playstyle benefits then the free points. Get rid of the minmaxing. I want free models if I take Precursor Knights in theme. The whole methodology as it is is silly.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Oct 3, 2017 23:42:12 GMT
FWIW, i would hate themes way less than i do if what chewie and snarly are describing was a real thing, instead of the stupid bullshit they are right now in many cases.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2017 0:46:03 GMT
free points is the real downfall. most of the other parts of themes are great.
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Post by josephkerr on Oct 4, 2017 2:16:13 GMT
Free points are fine. Ghost fleet is not unbalanced by a hellsinger phantom and pistol wraiths.
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Post by chewie on Oct 4, 2017 14:14:26 GMT
Free points are fine. Ghost fleet is not unbalanced by a hellsinger phantom and pistol wraiths. It's not so much that free points are unbalancing lists. It's that you are losing out on points versus an opponent who's not if you don't minmax your free points and they do. It'd be so much nicer if the free points were a more universal / uniform value, so you can build a list how you want within the theme without having to worry about playing 5-15 points down from your opponent.
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Post by sludgeogre on Oct 4, 2017 17:35:53 GMT
I think people are forgetting that opening up more options for themes may help list construction, but it makes the game harder to balance overall if the power curve widens out further. One of the reasons why the game is more relatively balanced on a faction vs faction basis (Grymkin and Ghost Fleet excluded) is because of the management of the power curve by making theme construction a little more constrictive and then boosting the power with free points that help support the army, but don't give it access to intense combo-wombo level of plays.
I do think that some of the themes should get rid of free points in favor of allowing non-character warjacks in them. Infernal Machine seems like it would be crazy if they could just take the jacks they want instead of getting free lights that they don't need.
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Post by cygnarstronk on Oct 4, 2017 18:35:41 GMT
Nah not enough points left if you get 30 points of gmages for a true jack lit, but it can sure be worked around a decent sized BG+Jr. like something this way conflictchamber.com/#c1201b_-0o7C9Bf6akanj6ajiPjz9K9L9MCygnar Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Sons of the Tempest !!! Your army contains a CID entry. (Stryker 1) Commander Coleman Stryker [+30] - Centurion [17] - Hurricane [39] - Squire [0(5)] Captain Arlan Strangewayes [0(4)] Eilish Garrity, the Occultist [5] Journeyman Warcaster [4] - Hunter [10] Lieutenant Bastian Falk [5] Arcane Tempest Gun Mages [11] - Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer [4] Black 13th Strike Force [10] seems decent, has a lot of magical, long ranged shooting for ghost fleet, but still has a core brick of centurion+colossal both with AS and aror skew feat avaible. Elish is there to help with upkeep hate, and the B13+free upkeep snipe are decent, along with free blur on the gmages. I think it could do some work, especially with the damge buff from falk being avaible along with magical weapons from arlan.
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Post by Sarcastastic on Oct 4, 2017 20:35:54 GMT
That proposed way of doing theme lists seems way more in tune with the first few that were released, specifically I am thinking of Kingmaker. When It first dropped, the obvious choice was taking Stannis free to benefit the Steelhead boat, or Kell/Orin because they're amazing. It was limited in scale, had cool options, and I will never shut up about how Kingmaker is the perfect mk3 theme list. If it was worded like Chewie/Snarlyow are proposing, I imagine it'd be something like "get Stannis/Kell for free + the other benefits". It wasn't the free points that were making it appealing, it was the not having to make room for Stannis that made it appealing. Same goes for Power of Dhunia when it dropped. No one made room for Northkin Shamans until they realized "hey if I take two of those as my FREE solos, I can make a cloud wall kinda." Maybe I'm rambling now and off topic as all hell.
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