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Post by Aegis on Oct 1, 2017 17:42:42 GMT
The new Heavy Metal change was poorly made in my opinion.
If the intent was to nerf it, other than being undeserved with the new meta situation that is very different from few months ago, it would have also missed the mark since the 4th solo was often useless in HM anyway.
If the intent was to make us take infantry into the theme, the mark is even more missed, since now to get 3 solos you have to take 90 points of jacks, leaving only around 10 points free for other things, not enough to invest in an infantry unit.
Going down to 2 solos to include our sub-par infantry options (long gunners, precursors or sword knights without Ruphert) is a no go.
For that, I think, SoT will likely become our secondary Jack theme.
If I have to accept to take just 2 free solos, I'll rather do it in SoT, where units are a little bit better and useful in general even without caster support (Gun Mages bring TS and thunderbolts, always useful, and Blazers are a fine flanking unit even unsupported), and that lets me take some really good support solos (GMCA, GM Riflemans and Falk) while also allowing me to take a merc unit and expecially a Merc solo, a thing that only Heavy Metal misses for "reasons".
I think that with the casters that do not want to go full BG (Aka 90+ points of jacks), SoT offers much more than HM now. Casters that can't take an extremely oversized BG, or that like ranged buffs, will likely enjoy more SoT than HM.
The basic list would probably be:
1 unit of gun mages (either ATGM or Blazers) and 2-3 GM solos (between GMCA, Riflemans and Falk) to reach 30 points. That leaves you with around 70 points for jacks and mercs, with Squire and another solo for free.
I'm not sure that was the intent, but with the poorly tought changes they made, I think that is how it will turn out.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Oct 1, 2017 18:25:59 GMT
Agree on your initial thoughts on HM. In reality it got a dobbel nerf.
I still think HM is one of our strongest themes, now together with gravediggers.
Cygnar has however gone from one of the factions with strongest themes to mediocre.
If you want to do HM with 90 jackpoints a really good unit IMO is palexia. Good for scoring unit and cant be spelled attack. And you can create a cheap solo each turn to either sit on your flag or run as fodder in to contest enemy zone.
if you want more than a small scoring unit, i myself would lean towards gravediggers.
Trenchers > gun mages
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Post by Major Grom on Oct 1, 2017 18:33:20 GMT
And in my opinion ATGM Officer one of best jack-marshal for some ranged jacks... Hunter with snipe... Or Cyclone with rune shots...
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Post by Aegis on Oct 1, 2017 18:50:51 GMT
Agree on your initial thoughts on HM. In reality it got a dobbel nerf. I still think HM is one of our strongest themes, now together with gravediggers. Cygnar has however gone from one of the factions with strongest themes to mediocre. If you want to do HM with 90 jackpoints a really good unit IMO is palexia. Good for scoring unit and cant be spelled attack. And you can create a cheap solo each turn to either sit on your flag or run as fodder in to contest enemy zone. if you want more than a small scoring unit, i myself would lean towards gravediggers. Trenchers > gun mages Probably Trenchers are better than Gun Mages, but to take 2 solos there you have to get 40 points of trenchers, shrinking your BG options. Also, while gun mage units aren't top dogs, GMCA for sure is, and Falk&Riflemans are good in some themes. For that I think that you could easily use mostly solos to get to the 30 points in SoT, and use the free solos for normal BG supporting solos like Squire, Arlan or JR. In general, I think the GMCA makes a lot of difference with many casters, and Trenchers like buffs a bit too much, while gun mages can work as support units even without caster involvement. As an example, if I decide to skip HM for casters like Caine3, Sloan or Kraye, I'd rather have some shooting support from 30 points of Gun Mages (again, likely one unit and a few solos) than 40 points of unsupported trenchers. Finally, remember that GD doesn't allow Squire, that is quite useful on most jack casters.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Oct 1, 2017 19:28:03 GMT
Yes GMAC is super good. But they are not cheap and die to a stiff breece.
Didnt think of filling out with solos on SoT to get free other solos. But im unshure. 2gmca and 2 snipers is 18 points. More than what i invest in 10 trenchers.
What i usually find that i need in sr2017 is cheap infantry which i can sacrific as screen or in a zone, but which does reasonble work. I dont see any of that in SoT bar the mercs slot.
ATgm officer shure has one of the best Jack marshall bonuses in mrk.3, but Jack marshall just seems week in mrk.3. Havent seen a Jack Marshalls Jack in any of the games i have played in mrk.3 or on other tables or in good lists. Usually Its better to get the boost and access to a lot of powerful field marshalls or battle group spells. Doesnt help that gun mages are sub par and the officer the worst of them (i may be salty). 😀 And If your made stationary og knocked down you cant shake in the maintence phase.
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Post by sludgeogre on Oct 1, 2017 20:19:02 GMT
I think looking at SotT as the Jack theme just because you only have to take 30 points to get free solos is the wrong way to look at it. It's pretty easy to take 40 points of trenchers and some support for them, also.
I think the main thing to keep in mind is that our jacks are very wimpy in terms of HP and ARM. Using SotT forces to support them means you're going to fall apart rather quickly after an alpha. With Trenchers, you can easily screen your jacks and tarpit some heavies while your jacks scalpel out some other important pieces.
I plan on running Kraye with 40 points of Trenchers to support his jacks. Taking a max unit of Infantry and Commandos, both with the CA and no WA's is great for smoke bombs plus a stealth unit with countermeasure that can't be shot by ranged attacks at all, and shuts down ranged attacks at most of the rest of your army, sounds like it will be bonkers into certain lists. You can still add Finn, a Trench Buster, and Hitch for a very nice and survivable support. Plus, with Kraye, your jacks gain Repo 5 and Pathfinder, which reeeeeeaaaaalllllyyyy helps Cygnar, especially when you have 30 small bases on the table with them. Charge with Trenchers, take out the screen and take a few points off a heavy, Charge in a Centurion behind them, murder the heavy, and reposition it 5" back behind your wall of trenchers. Sounds totally fun to me and I can't wait to try it.
Something along these lines:
Cygnar Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Gravediggers
(Kraye 1) Captain Jeremiah Kraye [+28]
- Centurion [17] - Centurion [17] - Grenadier [9] - Grenadier [9] Captain Maxwell Finn [0(6)] Commander Anson Hitch [4] Patrol Dog [2] Trencher Commandos (max) [15] - Trencher Commando Officer [4] Trencher Express Team [0(5)] Trencher Express Team [5] Trencher Infantry (max) [16] - Trencher Infantry Officer & Sniper [5]
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Oct 1, 2017 20:45:15 GMT
Yeah, most of my dojo these days seems to start with 40 points of trenchers. Centurions is just amazingballs with Kraye. Little unshure of the grenadier though. Little skornegy between dig in and 5 repo.
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Post by sludgeogre on Oct 1, 2017 23:31:47 GMT
Yeah, most of my dojo these days seems to start with 40 points of trenchers. Centurions is just amazingballs with Kraye. Little unshure of the grenadier though. Little skornegy between dig in and 5 repo. Same here. I think the Grenadier has some possibilities with him. Agreed that Dig In doesn't provide much synergy, but if you move him up and make ranged attacks and dig in as normal, and then charge in when ready, the reposition makes it so that you don't automatically lose him on the next turn. I'm looking forward to trying it, but we will see if it's worth it at all.
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Post by jisidro on Oct 2, 2017 11:05:13 GMT
The 15pt threashold is really low, makes a real difference.
Looks good with Kraye who wants all the jacks for himself and wants to apply his feat with as much confidence as possible.
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Post by snarlyyow on Oct 2, 2017 16:46:16 GMT
The big difference is the Squire. You wanna run jacks without a Squire? It gets tough. I'm not saying Aegis is wrong, I see what he's saying and it's valid. HM requires twice as many points of stuff for free stuff, Sons does not. Hell, even 45 points of Gun Mages and 55 points of jacks is still pretty damned good.
Aegis' observation that units in heavy metal are now less appealing is really true. I don't know what PP is thinking here. The themes themselves strike me as problematic. The benefits require minmaxing which stifles list composition. I've talked about this elsewhere but I think the way around this is just to give a free model, around 5 points, free for taking a theme. That model should be specific. And what we're seeing here is PP struggle to balance themes around the game. If I were to redo this shit this is sort of how I would balance themes:
That's it. See, if you just give free stuff right out of the gates there's no min-maxing. The theme still limits what can be played but it opens up more avenues for list construction.
I'd do the same with Storm Division:
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Post by spikevash13 on Oct 2, 2017 19:48:11 GMT
Tim they changed SotT though, it can have all non character warjacks and squire solos
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Post by snarlyyow on Oct 2, 2017 19:59:50 GMT
Tim they changed SotT though, it can have all non character warjacks and squire solos No. It went back. No Squire. Non-Character jacks with ranged weapons only.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Oct 2, 2017 20:11:54 GMT
Tim they changed SotT though, it can have all non character warjacks and squire solos No. It went back. No Squire. Non-Character jacks with ranged weapons only. OK ? When did that happen. My updated warroom is showing squire and non- charachter warjacks.
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Post by snarlyyow on Oct 2, 2017 20:28:17 GMT
No. It went back. No Squire. Non-Character jacks with ranged weapons only. OK ? When did that happen. My updated warroom is showing squire and non- charachter warjacks. The printed theme does not indicate that. The printed theme available via the insider the other day does not indicate the Squire and specifies warjacks with ranged weapons.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Oct 2, 2017 21:00:03 GMT
OK ? When did that happen. My updated warroom is showing squire and non- charachter warjacks. The printed theme does not indicate that. The printed theme available via the insider the other day does not indicate the Squire and specifies warjacks with ranged weapons. Pagani said on Facebook that squire would be allowed after the theme was released, so there is all reason to believe warroom is correct on that account.
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