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Post by dazzla on Sept 28, 2017 12:02:20 GMT
My favourite caster in Menoth is Sev 1. My experience during CID was that playing Sev 1 into a list with Eilish meant that the upkeeps were liabilities outside of the first turn (when not much happens anyway). If Sev 1 caste defenders ward or vision you had to be aware of the placement of Eilish. Effectively Eilish threat (even if he doesn't do anything), meant that key Sev 1 upkeep spells were not played. Otherwise you were spending focus to caste an upkeep which could be of no benefit to your unit and ultimately cost Sev health. If Eilish caught one unit with Defenders ward and another with vision in one turn, then Sev 1 could stand to lose 6 health with potentially no benefit from those spells on his card.
Eilish has a threat range with unbinding of 11 inches. And Gate Walker means that he can then zip away to (relative) safety.
Effectively, casting upkeeps was not viable for much of the game while Eilish was on the table. And Eilish can actually be hard to kill without a disproportionate effort for a 5 point model because of Gate Walker.
Moreover, opponents may well be willing to sacrifice Eilish to remove a critical upkeep at a critical time in the game.
Sev 1 has never liked upkeep hate (hex blast etc). But, given that Eilish is available to all factions (although not all theme lists) it is now likely to be much more common, especially as Eilish can arguably justify his cost with his other abilities. So, should Sev 1 stay on the shelf if Eilish could be in the opposing list (which may be often)?
Otherwise, how can Sev 1 counter Eilish (other than the obvious that you should kill him, as that may be quite difficult in practice given that opponents realise the significant impact he has)? It actually seems ridiculous to ask a question about how a caster, supposedly one of the premier pieces in the game, can cope with a 5 point solo, but still.
Also, how will Eilish affect the play of units that often relied on defensive upkeeps to see use (for me, temple flameguard and errants fall into that category)?
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Post by dicebedamned on Sept 28, 2017 12:24:42 GMT
I suppose it is the same as any sort of bad matchup - albeit amplified by the availability of Eilish - bring an anti option.
For me, with Sev1 I would be looking to bring nicia. As one of our best solo hunters she should be able to punish Eilish early game.
Preventing Eilish from removing upkeeps on a critical turn is something that is harder to control, but I am not overly worried, I have never considered Sev1's upkeeps to be the best thing about the caster anyways.
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Post by paradox on Sept 28, 2017 12:31:05 GMT
Kill Elish? It's hardly the first time a solo is a priority target.
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Post by dazzla on Sept 28, 2017 12:49:25 GMT
Kill Elish? It's hardly the first time a solo is a priority target. I do not disagree that it would be good to kill him. But my opponents normally include in their game plan measures to protect key models. And I am not a good enough player to reliably kill key opposing models at will. Nicia was a good suggestion though.
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Post by paradox on Sept 28, 2017 13:06:48 GMT
Flamebringers. Daughters. Guardians of the Temple - Ambushing daughters. Redeemers. Deliverers. Sunburst. Monk. Alten/Eiryss/Kell. Idrians.
It's not like there's a lack of options good at sniping solos.
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Post by WantonRanger on Sept 28, 2017 14:38:14 GMT
Kill Elish? It's hardly the first time a solo is a priority target. I do not disagree that it would be good to kill him. But my opponents normally include in their game plan measures to protect key models. And I am not a good enough player to reliably kill key opposing models at will. Nicia was a good suggestion though. Pretty much this. He won't just be available to kill as easy as is made out. As well as having to get casters close enough to their units to recast spells (if they don't have arcnodes) this will severely mess with the powerlevel of casters whose upkeeps are part of their costing. It would be fine if it was designated to a few factions but they just hand it to everyone....
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Post by paradox on Sept 28, 2017 15:01:24 GMT
I do not disagree that it would be good to kill him. But my opponents normally include in their game plan measures to protect key models. And I am not a good enough player to reliably kill key opposing models at will. Nicia was a good suggestion though. Pretty much this. He won't just be available to kill as easy as is made out. As well as having to get casters close enough to their units to recast spells (if they don't have arcnodes) this will severely mess with the powerlevel of casters whose upkeeps are part of their costing. It would be fine if it was designated to a few factions but they just hand it to everyone.... I definitely disagree on how hard it is to scalpel out one solo. If nothing else, Sevy1 can still take d3 for an A2A bounce into him. He's 13/14 non-stealth, non-tough 5 wounds.
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Post by paradox on Sept 28, 2017 15:15:39 GMT
You can also drop the Covenant in, and deny the spell. This has been gold for me in recent games with Feora1 Creator's Might. Walk, No spells, repo 3 is so damned good. I definitely make strong use of centralish LoS blocking terrain to insert this bubble strongly upfield. Alongside the jackwall, it's pretty safe.
Sevy1 has plenty of similar options here.
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 28, 2017 15:42:43 GMT
You can also drop the Covenant in, and deny the spell. This has been gold for me in recent games with Feora1 Creator's Might. Walk, No spells, repo 3 is so damned good. I definitely make strong use of centralish LoS blocking terrain to insert this bubble strongly upfield. Alongside the jackwall, it's pretty safe. Sevy1 has plenty of similar options here. I too appreciate the no spells bubble from the good old book. It can win games.
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Post by streetpizza on Sept 28, 2017 16:06:34 GMT
Eilish isn't the death knell for defensive up keeps ... offensive up keeps though.
If Eilish is on the table then casters with rebuke have one of their best tricks take a big hit.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Sept 28, 2017 16:30:29 GMT
With the reduced threat range of 11", I think that your stuffs are able to keep the buff until they charges or got charged. I don't think that the enemy Eilish can remove the buffs before that.
There is already a Minion model that has 10" threat range and able to dispel the upkeeps on a hit. Indeed Thrullg is a bad model, but if 10~11" dispel threat is useful that much then we were already see them in play, however we didn't.
I don't think that it would be too much problematic.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Sept 28, 2017 16:48:12 GMT
I take Redeemers often, especially with Sevy1. At 13/14 with no defensive tech to speak of, Eilish is pretty much begging to die. It's not like this would be the first time I've had to prioritize playmaker solos/characters like Eiryss2, Ragman, Ryan in the Black 13th, etc. Heck, a Redeemer only needs a boosted 12 to directly hit him (~35% chance) which is far better than we normally fare for these kinds of solos.
I'm not worried about him. I'm more annoyed that he grants Puppet Strings to every faction. But, at 5 points, he is pricey for what he does.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Sept 28, 2017 16:51:20 GMT
Has anyone had any luck using Indictors against him? Specifically the bubble of 'No!'?
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Sept 28, 2017 17:01:11 GMT
You can also drop the Covenant in, and deny the spell. This has been gold for me in recent games with Feora1 Creator's Might. Walk, No spells, repo 3 is so damned good. I definitely make strong use of centralish LoS blocking terrain to insert this bubble strongly upfield. Alongside the jackwall, it's pretty safe. Sevy1 has plenty of similar options here. Not to derail, but I'm very interested in your Feora1 list.
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Post by paradox on Sept 28, 2017 17:37:48 GMT
You can also drop the Covenant in, and deny the spell. This has been gold for me in recent games with Feora1 Creator's Might. Walk, No spells, repo 3 is so damned good. I definitely make strong use of centralish LoS blocking terrain to insert this bubble strongly upfield. Alongside the jackwall, it's pretty safe. Sevy1 has plenty of similar options here. Not to derail, but I'm very interested in your Feora1 list. Current testing iteration: Theme: The Creator's Might 4 / 4 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Feora, Priestess of the Flame - WJ: +31 - Hierophant - PC: 0 - Hand of Judgment - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Reckoner - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Devout - PC: 9 Avatar of Menoth - PC: 20 The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 0 Initiate Tristan Durant - PC: 0 - Revelator - PC: 37 Wrack - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1 Vassal of Menoth - PC: 0 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4
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