Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Oct 6, 2017 6:05:57 GMT
Well, no, actually. You've found a very important point, but missed its real relevance here. Contrary to the accusation of faction bias, the fact remains that Cygnar players generally aren't that miffed about other factions getting lightning. Nor are khador players about players getting ice, nor cryx about others getting corrosion. There's a very good reason why. A circle player could take every lightning-themed option at their disposal, and they wouldn't come anywhere close to invading upon Cygnar's playstyle. That's because cygnar isn't just defined by being 'the lightning faction' in the same way that Protectorate is heavily defined by being 'the fire faction'. The four starting factions all have their elemental theme, not necessarily any more relevant than their model aesthetic, but none of them depend on it as heavily for their identity as Protectorate does. Once upon a time, neither did Protectorate, but with so many themes winnowed out, it's one of the few that remains. If a circle player wants to take Krueger with storm raptors and druids, it's still going to play fundamentally-different from a Nemo list filled with Stormnouns, because both those factions have a lot of other identifying factors beyond that little lightning-bolt symbol. On the protectorate side, however, where the themes can literally boil down to blasts + fire, all it takes is a random caster with something outlandish, like, say mass immunity to fire, or Field Marshal: Continuous Fire, and suddenly protectorate's 'distinct' gameplay is threatened. I can understand. But currently, none of the Protectorate themes forces rely on fire damage. None of their non-caster models require the target be on fire to operate at their base rules. Fire is a big part of what some of their kit can benefit from, Feoras and Malekus being the stand outs. But in the same way that you don't drop Nemo into an opposing storm division. Don't drop Malekus into Kallus 2. That's not to mention that other than the fire immunity, Kallus' spell is near entirely pointless. I've never once had the cont. fire effect proc for a whole host of reason/faults. And he just has flat out better things to spend fury on. I would willingly throw away that dumb spell any day of the week. Would that clear up every bit of salt? Hardly. But I digress... Ignoring that, Krueger has a spell to grant blanket lightning immunity over a large ctrl range. Is that not the same argument? Or, am I to take that you are saying Protectorate's only "theme" or identity is blast and fire damage? I would argue they have a much better identity of elite infantry, fantastic special rule warjacks, and (yes, still) Denial. In the end Legion's ONE caster fits the bill for what you are describing for Circle. We play entirely different games. We do not overlap or steal away tech from PoM. Protectorate has sooooo much more going for it than fire rolls. And again I would be more than happy to see any other spell on Kallus' card. But even if Kallus 2 never existed they'd just find something else to call out as the reason for their misery. I mean come on it's 1 caster out of likely more than a hundred. A caster that is not well designed in any regard. But just because he has 1 spell and his feat relies entirely on a status effect we can't reliably put out... Protectorate is in ruin? If you want I can literally put Kallus 2 armies together and test all my PoM stuff into it and give you battle reports. I can give advice on how to beat his tech. Ruin our day. Etc... I'd love to find a way to help everyone get over the obstacle. I'm not talking about theme lists. I'm talking about the themes of the faction. I'm talking about the reasons someone should pick protectorate over any other faction aside from just liking the models more. Elite Infantry? Every faction has that, protectorate doesn't even get to be the only 'knight' faction. fantastic special rule warjacks? What? Protectorate has some of the most basic warjacks in the game, depending on outside sources for special rules - several of which were dialed down in this edition. Only the special characters really have a lot of varied tech - but so do basically everyone else's character warbeasts/warjacks. I don't think there is even one warjack in protectorate that is anywhere close to preeminence in that category, so how can that be it's theme? Even the denial, which used to be iconic of the faction, while it still exists, is so tremendously muted now that it contributes very little to a denial theme of play. So much denial in protectorate now is stuff like blessed/spell ward, that just passively shuts down rules, it's not anything you actually use. In Mk1, protectorate had all sorts out out-of-turn counter tech, like retaliatory damage, mass counter-charges, pre-emptive attacks, meaningful consequences for hurting models, etc. All that stuff you could actually build lists, strategies, and gameplay around. In Mk2, PP called that an NPE, and largely removed it from the game or weakened it to a footnote, with some of the only remaining meaningful counterplay models actually not even being in Protectorate. Even anti-magic, one of protectorate's strongest themes, has been liberally handed out to Ret via the Mage Hunter models, and most of their tech is actually interesting to play, with rules that depend more on triggers and placement, and have more powerful potential effects, vs what are often very static rules in the protectorate. Put aside models for a moment and think purely about gameplay mechanics, playstyle, and tech. What question would a player have to ask regarding the faction they would want to play where the answer is ever 'Protectorate' over some other faction?
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Oct 6, 2017 12:01:14 GMT
"I want my caster to give +1 to hit and damage without having to spend any resources"
"I want to make my battlegroup immune to non-magical shooting/Spells"
"I want to have very efficient revive tech while also playing competent models"
etc etc
The "Protectorate isn't unique" story is funny, but its hardly true and misses the point entirely.
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on Oct 6, 2017 12:11:35 GMT
Can we just close this *cry me a river* thread?
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Post by c0deb1ue on Oct 6, 2017 13:03:48 GMT
Can we just close this *cry me a river* thread? Please don't post things that add nothing to the discussion and just insult other posters. edit: your post below makes no sense
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on Oct 6, 2017 13:33:51 GMT
Please don't post things that add nothing to the discussion and just insult other posters. Seconded
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 6, 2017 13:39:57 GMT
I'm not talking about theme lists. I'm talking about the themes of the faction. I'm talking about the reasons someone should pick protectorate over any other faction aside from just liking the models more. Elite Infantry? Every faction has that, protectorate doesn't even get to be the only 'knight' faction. fantastic special rule warjacks? What? Protectorate has some of the most basic warjacks in the game, depending on outside sources for special rules - several of which were dialed down in this edition. Only the special characters really have a lot of varied tech - but so do basically everyone else's character warbeasts/warjacks. I don't think there is even one warjack in protectorate that is anywhere close to preeminence in that category, so how can that be it's theme? Even the denial, which used to be iconic of the faction, while it still exists, is so tremendously muted now that it contributes very little to a denial theme of play. So much denial in protectorate now is stuff like blessed/spell ward, that just passively shuts down rules, it's not anything you actually use. In Mk1, protectorate had all sorts out out-of-turn counter tech, like retaliatory damage, mass counter-charges, pre-emptive attacks, meaningful consequences for hurting models, etc. All that stuff you could actually build lists, strategies, and gameplay around. In Mk2, PP called that an NPE, and largely removed it from the game or weakened it to a footnote, with some of the only remaining meaningful counterplay models actually not even being in Protectorate. Even anti-magic, one of protectorate's strongest themes, has been liberally handed out to Ret via the Mage Hunter models, and most of their tech is actually interesting to play, with rules that depend more on triggers and placement, and have more powerful potential effects, vs what are often very static rules in the protectorate. Put aside models for a moment and think purely about gameplay mechanics, playstyle, and tech. What question would a player have to ask regarding the faction they would want to play where the answer is ever 'Protectorate' over some other faction? "Basic" warjacks These are all very meaningful abilities that influence your choice in what to take. It's not just based on "do I want a hammer, a sword, or a gun jack". Which has better rules a Destroyer or a Reckoner? A Dervish or a berseker? Revenger or a death ripper? PoM jacks have rules that are unique that add something to the game. They solve problems or give you an undeniable bonus mechanic. Their rules aren't dead weight like many others are. But that seems to be a dismiss-able perspective of a Hordes main with "ZOMG fury and animi are best utility evar" Sounds like MK1 was broken. Can't imagine why things changed... Your premise is beyond reasonable. If you take out ALL mechanics, playstyle, and tech. You're left with aesthetics. So you're defeating your own argument by not allowing the faction to put forth any of it's meaningful qualities. But ignoring that screw ball qualification - Maybe questions like "Who has the most high damage infantry" "Who has neat soul mechanics" "Who has casters that DENY my opponent from doing their cool stuff" "Who has the highest focus stat in the game" "Who has the best fully autonomous Warjack" "Who has great mid to front line casters that can really get work done with spells or in melee" "Who has the most access to Blessed weapons cuz I really hate armor buffs" all those things might play into WHY people would want to play PoM. Again I picked up PoM specifically because of the Unreal casters, the wonderfully varied and well defined warjacks, and stupid amounts of weapon masters. I could care less about some crappy fire rolls that are highly likely to go out. You seem clearly disgruntle that PoM is not MK1 levels anymore. I can't even tell you what that is because I never played that early. But I can easily assume that NO ONE is playing their MK1 tech anymore. If you cannot fathom why the faction changed or cannot bring yourself to accept the changes. Then I'm sorry. But I'm not the culprit and I have no remorse for something I never experienced. I can only tell you my experience with the faction right now and it is nothing but positive. I'm sorry you can't enjoy the faction anymore.
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Post by c0deb1ue on Oct 6, 2017 14:12:53 GMT
this thread just needs an agree to disagree button
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Oct 6, 2017 14:55:57 GMT
Personally, I feel like I have learned many things about myself and how I view this faction from reading this thread. I was at a point where the magic of the faction was starting to fade. I was passing the honeymoon stage of looking into all the options and possibilities offered when you first start with a faction. But after reading this I am reminded there are still some casters I have never played and options I have yet to look into. (Not to mention new models and rules updates yet to come.) There are models I am under valuing because I am supposed to take them.
I.E. Gun lists take a Reckoner, but am I using it to the fullest? I threw one in my Thyra list just to test out having a gun in the list other than Nicia. Last night I then swapped armies with my Trolls opponent as I am sick of playing against trolls (a fair number of good troll players in my meta.) He then used the Reckoner to flare my caster before going in for an assassination run. I know this is pretty basic strategy but it is something I over looked when I added him to the list.
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Post by W0lfBane on Oct 6, 2017 15:09:40 GMT
This thread is going to keep going or similar ones will keep sprnging up until our turn at cid comes by then after that depends how fun the cid is.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Oct 6, 2017 15:57:23 GMT
Yeah, it's less about facts, it's more about how someone feels about the faction, I guess. Hard to change this by saying "Well, I feel differently". For example I feel PoM has lots of unique and characterful abilities, synergies and combinations. That's why I like playing those firestarting, witch-hunting, religious weirdos. I wish we'd get a Telekinesis caster one day
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Oct 6, 2017 16:15:04 GMT
This thread is going to keep going or similar ones will keep sprnging up until our turn at cid comes by then after that depends how fun the cid is. Nah. Doesn't matter how the CiD turns out,there will always be people who are unsatisfied and have a burning need to share it.
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Post by chillychinaman on Oct 6, 2017 16:33:10 GMT
This thread is going to keep going or similar ones will keep sprnging up until our turn at cid comes by then after that depends how fun the cid is. Nah. Doesn't matter how the CiD turns out,there will always be people who are unsatisfied and have a burning need to share it. True, but if the CID is successful, it should at least reduce the number of satisfied people. On the topic of CID however, what existing themes are there to develop? Unless they start bringing in Exemplar Cleansers or Flameguard Bastions, I don't see what new stuff there is to add aside from Paladins.
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Oct 6, 2017 16:52:45 GMT
Nah. Doesn't matter how the CiD turns out,there will always be people who are unsatisfied and have a burning need to share it. True, but if the CID is successful, it should at least reduce the number of satisfied people. On the topic of CID however, what existing themes are there to develop? Unless they start bringing in Exemplar Cleansers or Flameguard Bastions, I don't see what new stuff there is to add aside from Paladins. There will always be people that are not happy. What do you mean by existing themes? Literal themes that already exist that we can build on? Or what Kind of themes can we still derive from the Protectorate? The Flame guard theme has nothing directly to do with fire. So a Fire theme all it's own? We could have a Heavy infantry theme next to the exemplar theme (a new anti armor crossbow heavy infantry unit would be cool). I want to see some more abilities that trigger on burning enemies in faction. (I'm sure there are things that will come out that I did not know I wanted too.) But mainly... I personally want to see Harbinger, our medium based infantry (both of them), the purifier, and perhaps the Judicator? go through some sort of CID. These are just the ones that I want to see improved off the top of my head.
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Post by streetpizza on Oct 6, 2017 20:49:30 GMT
On the topic of CID however, what existing themes are there to develop? Unless they start bringing in Exemplar Cleansers or Flameguard Bastions, I don't see what new stuff there is to add aside from Paladins. - Scrutator solos and/or units - Monk units and more diverse monk solos - More diversity in zealot type units (think armed with simple pole arms or some kind of thing) - Witch/warlock/grymkin hunters - Chariot battle engine that isn't a caster - More priests and priestesses of the flame with fire augmentation abilities - Alternate choir type or choir UA like the stone UA maybe one that buffs zealot type units - different idrian unit or solos to explore theme of the desert wastes - A second order of knights like templar vs hospitaler to compliment the exemplar order we currently have possibly focused on defense rather than offense - the theme of soul collection and guidance could us a lot of work and emphasis. More reclaimers possibly as a universal unit weapon attachment would be cool See 5 minutes of thought by a non game developer and there's quire a few ideas. The protectorate has lots of room for expansion.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Oct 6, 2017 20:51:28 GMT
I'm not talking about theme lists. I'm talking about the themes of the faction. I'm talking about the reasons someone should pick protectorate over any other faction aside from just liking the models more. Elite Infantry? Every faction has that, protectorate doesn't even get to be the only 'knight' faction. fantastic special rule warjacks? What? Protectorate has some of the most basic warjacks in the game, depending on outside sources for special rules - several of which were dialed down in this edition. Only the special characters really have a lot of varied tech - but so do basically everyone else's character warbeasts/warjacks. I don't think there is even one warjack in protectorate that is anywhere close to preeminence in that category, so how can that be it's theme? Even the denial, which used to be iconic of the faction, while it still exists, is so tremendously muted now that it contributes very little to a denial theme of play. So much denial in protectorate now is stuff like blessed/spell ward, that just passively shuts down rules, it's not anything you actually use. In Mk1, protectorate had all sorts out out-of-turn counter tech, like retaliatory damage, mass counter-charges, pre-emptive attacks, meaningful consequences for hurting models, etc. All that stuff you could actually build lists, strategies, and gameplay around. In Mk2, PP called that an NPE, and largely removed it from the game or weakened it to a footnote, with some of the only remaining meaningful counterplay models actually not even being in Protectorate. Even anti-magic, one of protectorate's strongest themes, has been liberally handed out to Ret via the Mage Hunter models, and most of their tech is actually interesting to play, with rules that depend more on triggers and placement, and have more powerful potential effects, vs what are often very static rules in the protectorate. Put aside models for a moment and think purely about gameplay mechanics, playstyle, and tech. What question would a player have to ask regarding the faction they would want to play where the answer is ever 'Protectorate' over some other faction? "Basic" warjacks These are all very meaningful abilities that influence your choice in what to take. It's not just based on "do I want a hammer, a sword, or a gun jack". Which has better rules a Destroyer or a Reckoner? A Dervish or a berseker? Revenger or a death ripper? PoM jacks have rules that are unique that add something to the game. They solve problems or give you an undeniable bonus mechanic. Their rules aren't dead weight like many others are. But that seems to be a dismiss-able perspective of a Hordes main with "ZOMG fury and animi are best utility evar" Sounds like MK1 was broken. Can't imagine why things changed... Your premise is beyond reasonable. If you take out ALL mechanics, playstyle, and tech. You're left with aesthetics. So you're defeating your own argument by not allowing the faction to put forth any of it's meaningful qualities. But ignoring that screw ball qualification - Maybe questions like "Who has the most high damage infantry" "Who has neat soul mechanics" "Who has casters that DENY my opponent from doing their cool stuff" "Who has the highest focus stat in the game" "Who has the best fully autonomous Warjack" "Who has great mid to front line casters that can really get work done with spells or in melee" "Who has the most access to Blessed weapons cuz I really hate armor buffs" all those things might play into WHY people would want to play PoM. Again I picked up PoM specifically because of the Unreal casters, the wonderfully varied and well defined warjacks, and stupid amounts of weapon masters. I could care less about some crappy fire rolls that are highly likely to go out. You seem clearly disgruntle that PoM is not MK1 levels anymore. I can't even tell you what that is because I never played that early. But I can easily assume that NO ONE is playing their MK1 tech anymore. If you cannot fathom why the faction changed or cannot bring yourself to accept the changes. Then I'm sorry. But I'm not the culprit and I have no remorse for something I never experienced. I can only tell you my experience with the faction right now and it is nothing but positive. I'm sorry you can't enjoy the faction anymore. Every faction has jacks and beasts with interesting rules. Even in those examples you just gave, a destroyer has arcing fire, which changes its shooting options (and how its opponent has to react) significantly. It's a 4" aoe, filling both a single-target and AoE role. Even 'basic' warjacks in other factions still have some tech to them. Most high-damage infantry? Khador? Anyone with Fury or battle rage? Cryx? Protectorate gets, what, ignite as their main melee damage buff for infantry? I can get my warspears to PS19 (PS22 if I want to be dumb and build a list around it). Show me the PS19 protectorate infantry. Neat soul mechanics? Convergence? Cryx? Gators? Heck, since it's only really one caster in protectorate that does it, we could lump Skorne in here as well, with their equivalent obligatory soul-caster. Even mercs get one now with Gastonne2. Deny? Deny what? What denial does protectorate still have? Blast immunity from Girded? Trenchers have been doing that since forever. Anti-magic? It's in a few places now (everyone can take Eilish, if nothing else). Spell-removal is one of the very few things protectorate does generally do better than everyone else now. Not as big a gap as it used to be. Autonomous warjack? Well, Deathjack gets 3 focus every turn innately, up to 5 on demand, so... Oh wait, there's also that faction where the WHOLE BATTLEGROUP can be autonomous due to a tiny little support light jack. Frontline casters? You know Khador doesn't have any arc nodes except for integrated tech on specific casters, right? Same with mercs? Mostly frontline casters in both cases. Not a whole lot of troll casters really hang back in the rear either. Half of convergence's casters can play very aggressive due to being able to hoard their focus. You didn't play mk1, so you have nothing to compare it to. Its understandable that you don't realize how far the faction fell. It wasn't overpowered (people seem to really struggle with differentiating gameplay variety with gameplay power), and protectorate wasn't a powerhouse faction. PP just identified the 'blue' style of gameplay as an NPE, and removed it. I still hold that was a mistake, one of many PP has and still continues to make. Mk3 was a chance to fix that and give things back to the protectorate that couldn't be found just anywhere else, and they didn't. I got into protectorate because of the deep layers of strategy involved with the rules and the counterplay, where you could build whole lists around reading and exploiting your opponent's actions to turn them against themselves, or cripple their ability to fight. That's all pretty much gone now.
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