Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Oct 5, 2017 17:02:46 GMT
Well, no, actually. You've found a very important point, but missed its real relevance here. Contrary to the accusation of faction bias, the fact remains that Cygnar players generally aren't that miffed about other factions getting lightning. Nor are khador players about players getting ice, nor cryx about others getting corrosion. There's a very good reason why. A circle player could take every lightning-themed option at their disposal, and they wouldn't come anywhere close to invading upon Cygnar's playstyle. That's because cygnar isn't just defined by being 'the lightning faction' in the same way that Protectorate is heavily defined by being 'the fire faction'. The four starting factions all have their elemental theme, not necessarily any more relevant than their model aesthetic, but none of them depend on it as heavily for their identity as Protectorate does. Once upon a time, neither did Protectorate, but with so many themes winnowed out, it's one of the few that remains. If a circle player wants to take Krueger with storm raptors and druids, it's still going to play fundamentally-different from a Nemo list filled with Stormnouns, because both those factions have a lot of other identifying factors beyond that little lightning-bolt symbol. On the protectorate side, however, where the themes can literally boil down to blasts + fire, all it takes is a random caster with something outlandish, like, say mass immunity to fire, or Field Marshal: Continuous Fire, and suddenly protectorate's 'distinct' gameplay is threatened. I can understand. But currently, none of the Protectorate themes forces rely on fire damage. None of their non-caster models require the target be on fire to operate at their base rules. Fire is a big part of what some of their kit can benefit from, Feoras and Malekus being the stand outs. But in the same way that you don't drop Nemo into an opposing storm division. Don't drop Malekus into Kallus 2. That's not to mention that other than the fire immunity, Kallus' spell is near entirely pointless. I've never once had the cont. fire effect proc for a whole host of reason/faults. And he just has flat out better things to spend fury on. I would willingly throw away that dumb spell any day of the week. Would that clear up every bit of salt? Hardly. But I digress... Ignoring that, Krueger has a spell to grant blanket lightning immunity over a large ctrl range. Is that not the same argument? Or, am I to take that you are saying Protectorate's only "theme" or identity is blast and fire damage? I would argue they have a much better identity of elite infantry, fantastic special rule warjacks, and (yes, still) Denial. In the end Legion's ONE caster fits the bill for what you are describing for Circle. We play entirely different games. We do not overlap or steal away tech from PoM. Protectorate has sooooo much more going for it than fire rolls. And again I would be more than happy to see any other spell on Kallus' card. But even if Kallus 2 never existed they'd just find something else to call out as the reason for their misery. I mean come on it's 1 caster out of likely more than a hundred. A caster that is not well designed in any regard. But just because he has 1 spell and his feat relies entirely on a status effect we can't reliably put out... Protectorate is in ruin? If you want I can literally put Kallus 2 armies together and test all my PoM stuff into it and give you battle reports. I can give advice on how to beat his tech. Ruin our day. Etc... I'd love to find a way to help everyone get over the obstacle. I'd like to point out that cygnar has the hunter, charger, defender, grenadier, stormwall's main guns, that one with the double chain guns, and avenger for non-typed shooting battlegroup damage: they'll only be stopped cold if it's an explicit lightning list facing down Krueger or storm div. We have redeemers and judicator rockets, all inaccurate. literally all our other battlegroup shooting, and half the infantry shooting, is all fire, not to mention several feats, plus we have a ton of ashen veil. It's stopped by about half the protectorate mirrors, horgle, kallus, and durgen. In short, yes, fire immunity seems to hurt us more than lighting immunity hurts cygnar, both in terms of number of immune enemies and percentage of models ignored.
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Post by greytemplar on Oct 5, 2017 17:03:18 GMT
Yup. Having a way to strip fire immunity would be a good thing to get.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 5, 2017 17:16:44 GMT
I'd like to point out that cygnar has the hunter, charger, defender, grenadier, stormwall's main guns, that one with the double chain guns, and avenger for non-typed shooting battlegroup damage: they'll only be stopped cold if it's an explicit lightning list facing down Krueger or storm div. We have redeemers and judicator rockets, all inaccurate. literally all our other battlegroup shooting, and half the infantry shooting, is all fire, not to mention several feats, plus we have a ton of ashen veil. It's stopped by about half the protectorate mirrors, horgle, kallus, and durgen. In short, yes, fire immunity seems to hurt us more than lighting immunity hurts cygnar, both in terms of number of immune enemies and percentage of models ignored. I would much rather just give up Kallus' stupid spell. Much easier fix than trying to rewrite the faction. But again 3 casters, in other factions, out of the entire game ruin your faction? How often do you see Kallus 2 and Horgle 2? Were they tearing it up at all the local tournaments? By your logic Legion needs a way to remove PoM's fire immunity. All but 2 of our ranged beats are fire damage. One of those two causes continuous fire. So PoM is ruining my factions ranged game with their fire immunity. Nerf! I really don't want to be as annoyed as I'm getting. But the subset of models getting focused on is minute compared to the whole of the game. I do not think it is feasible or warranted to try and change all of what you want just because of a tiny percentage of non-protectorate models can be immune to fire...
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Oct 5, 2017 17:23:11 GMT
I would love to play a fire theme that removed fire immunity. I just dread playing fire into another fire immune (or partially immune) list. It would result in a very awkward slug match wouldn't it? I imagine everything not fire immune dies eventually and you are both left contesting zones with little ability to take your opponents pieces off the zones until clock run out?
What if we had an aura (or theme) that made all fire attacks "Holy Fire" (unaffected by fire immunity?) Or they swapped all of our "Damage Type: Fire" into "Holy Fire"?
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 5, 2017 17:24:57 GMT
RE: fire theme. We have themes that strip opposing abilities (AD, now Ambush). One great bonus for a fire theme would be stripping fire immunity from enemies. Lose and cant gain. Then you can include non-character jacks with fire type, or crit/cont fire. Same with troops and solos. Fill some holes with themey pieces (VoJ, Book both spread fire. Add choir, misc support), some additional bonuses. Done. Not trying to hound or refute... but what would the fluff reason be? It's really almost focused as an anti-Protectorate theme. I can understand the scout themes being able to recon and stop models from ambushing them. Fluffy logic. How does PoM engineer that. Or is it just a "god did it" sort of thing? By all means, have the theme. It's nothing against me. *thumbs up
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 5, 2017 17:27:49 GMT
It would result in a very awkward slug match wouldn't it? I imagine everything not fire immune dies eventually and you are both left contesting zones with little ability to take your opponents pieces off the zones until clock run out? Melee I get it, fire is the only type of guns you get. But there is still a very strong melee presence in PoM. I would say it's weakest feature is it's guns. But that is all personal preference and playstyle. [edit; that seemed far more unfriendly than I intended it... ]
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Post by paradox on Oct 5, 2017 17:34:56 GMT
RE: fire theme. We have themes that strip opposing abilities (AD, now Ambush). One great bonus for a fire theme would be stripping fire immunity from enemies. Lose and cant gain. Then you can include non-character jacks with fire type, or crit/cont fire. Same with troops and solos. Fill some holes with themey pieces (VoJ, Book both spread fire. Add choir, misc support), some additional bonuses. Done. Not trying to hound or refute... but what would the fluff reason be? It's really almost focused as an anti-Protectorate theme. I can understand the scout themes being able to recon and stop models from ambushing them. Fluffy logic. How does PoM engineer that. Or is it just a "god did it" sort of thing? By all means, have the theme. It's nothing against me. *thumbs up Spreading fire. Removing immunity allows it to work. You have no protection from Menoth's holy fire. It doesnt look at all "anti-Menoth to me, unless you remove all fluff context to focus on mechanics.
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Post by c0deb1ue on Oct 5, 2017 17:54:10 GMT
The other thing they could fix very easily in this faction is the "healing" theme...
They just need to make our medium infantry last more than one hit but unfortunately that seems impossible with the current meta and 5 hitboxes
We have a fair number of good healing sources from Harbinger/Battle engine/Bastion sene/Tristan.... we unfortunately have no infantry that are good enough to take advantage of these aspects to run what could be some very interesting lists. All our multibox exemplar infantry just die die die, have relatively poor defensive stats regardless of DW and can't support what could be a great Protectorate theme.
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Oct 5, 2017 18:18:35 GMT
To be honest I forgot that the melee weapons never get fire based attacks even if they have continuous fire.
(pairings aside- I know that isn't how the game is played) Our Non Jack flame options focus on flame throwers and ranged fire attacks. This usually doesn't overlap with our strong sword units. Cinerators being an exception though their melee as stated above isn't actually fire and is therefore unaffected by things that buff fire damage (I.E. Malekus). And cinerators are... not good right now to say the least. Am I missing a unit that has a decent melee potential and deals fire damage?
I will concede that Jacks do somewhat fit that overlap. Eye of Truth has a fire ranged and a great punch as does the Reckoner and the Revelator.
We can take the purifier but the more I look at him the more of a mess he seems to be... Crit fire but you are already on fire if I am b2b. He isn't armor cracking so we will probably be using him against infantry. Which we will be trying to kill and overtake. So if we fail to kill but made it b2b there is a 2/3rds chance we will deal damage to him? If it's a single box model and didn't die to the pow 13 melee attack, what are the chances he will die to a pow 12 fire damage roll?
One small note: we can boost damage with Malekus from fire attacks and gain focus for each enemy on fire with Feora 2 (both one turn feat effects). Otherwise I feel like we have a lot of ways to cause fire without anything to gain from doing so. Kallus 2 causes damage to things on fire while also giving beasts additional speed and free charges or slams (into fire on feat turn). Horgle 2 also gives free charges to battle group attacking something on fire (all game not one turn) and under feat boosts all attack and damage rolls against things on fire. Trolls fire guys set themselves/get set on fire and deal boosted attack and damage rolls. My point being that (although it might not be true), I feel like we just do less once we have you on fire.
I Could be missing something here. I'm continuing this discussion "argument?" in the hopes that I learn something.
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Post by greytemplar on Oct 5, 2017 18:34:44 GMT
Nope, that's pretty much the long and short of it. We light stuff on fire, but don't do much once stuff is burning.
We need more Blazing Wrath, Fuel for the Flames, Oil, etc... type abilities.
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Post by c0deb1ue on Oct 5, 2017 18:41:28 GMT
Nope, that's pretty much the long and short of it. We light stuff on fire, but don't do much once stuff is burning. We need more Blazing Wrath, Fuel for the Flames, Oil, etc... type abilities. I definitely think we do need more accessible ways to make fire do more damage. I would love some sort of crazed/shunned alchemist solo who could help buff units fire damage...
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Oct 5, 2017 19:06:59 GMT
Nope, that's pretty much the long and short of it. We light stuff on fire, but don't do much once stuff is burning. We need more Blazing Wrath, Fuel for the Flames, Oil, etc... type abilities. I definitely think we do need more accessible ways to make fire do more damage. I would love some sort of crazed/shunned alchemist solo who could help buff units fire damage... Or just "bless" the flames or something like that.
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Post by paradox on Oct 5, 2017 19:11:39 GMT
Wait for the Flameguard/Temple of the Flame CID.
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Post by c0deb1ue on Oct 5, 2017 19:37:57 GMT
Wait for the Flameguard/Temple of the Flame CID. is that going to be another 7-8 months after the exemplar CID in like 7-8 months... .... I am way too impatient for these time scales though CID does seem to be happening regularly
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Post by paradox on Oct 5, 2017 20:08:00 GMT
Wait for the Flameguard/Temple of the Flame CID. is that going to be another 7-8 months after the exemplar CID in like 7-8 months... .... I am way too impatient for these time scales though CID does seem to be happening regularly No clue!
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