|
Post by chillychinaman on Oct 3, 2017 19:56:55 GMT
What do you all see as the strengths, gimmicks, themes(not forces), or tricks of the PoM faction? ForEver_Blight has already listed them for you. Either you choose not to read his posts or you're just being willfully ignorant at this point. There are more there then what he's discussed however you shouldn't need others to do that for you. If you can't suss out what protectorate can do then no wonder you're having difficulty here. Okay, sorry again, I don't know how I missed that paragraph. EDIT: Having found and read through, I can only say, that either am I bad at the game and need to git gud, not too surprised, or that there are elements within the faction's base will disagree with the assessment. Either way, I've said my piece, you guys have said yours, I'll sign off for now.
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 3, 2017 19:58:49 GMT
What do you all see as the strengths, gimmicks, themes(not forces), or tricks of the PoM faction? ForEver_Blight has already listed them for you. Either you choose not to read his posts or you're just being willfully ignorant at this point. There are more there then what he's discussed however you shouldn't need others to do that for you. If you can't suss out what protectorate can do then no wonder you're having difficulty here. I was in a bit of a sour mood. It might not have come across as something he wanted to read. For that I apologize. I can sift out the bits and list them more in a more detailed and civil fashion. He's asking for an outside opinion. Not being willfully obtuse. I usually ask and welcome outside thoughts on Legion as I swear it's not as bad as I think it is (which often it's not. Tis why I still play and succeed). So I get exactly why he's asking. Plus it should move to a more productive conversation. I swear by Menoth that I'll be nicer henceforth... or be wracked by mods >.<!
|
|
|
Post by chillychinaman on Oct 3, 2017 20:06:01 GMT
I know I said I was signing off, but one more thing:
@forever_Blight Just wanna say, that you and I seem to have an opposite view on Legion/Protectorate I started during the game the last year of Mk2 with the two factions and when Mk3 I got really bummed with PoM and focused more on Legion.
No hard feelings, the internet is a cold, heartless place, or at least it can come across as one. For what it's worth,ForEver_Blight I've loved you articles about Kryssa/CotD.
|
|
draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
|
Post by draycos on Oct 3, 2017 20:41:23 GMT
I know I said I was signing off, but one more thing: @forever_Blight Just wanna say, that you and I seem to have an opposite view on Legion/Protectorate I started during the game the last year of Mk2 with the two factions and when Mk3 I got really bummed with PoM and focused more on Legion. No hard feelings, the internet is a cold, heartless place, or at least it can come across as one. For what it's worth,ForEver_Blight I've loved you articles about Kryssa/CotD. Ironically I did near the exact opposite... I started playing late MK2 with Legion of everblight and liked them a ton for their big beasts, strong gun line and assassination potentials. (I played mostly Lily 2). When MK 3 was announced I was hoping that our Beasts would gain some survival capability (even in trade for some damage potential or utility). After a few months of playing MK3 (around the time that feyanna became a thing) I lost interest in the faction. I did not have the skill to manage the alpha strike or it never did enough, my original lists were nerfed quite a bit (my opinion), the changes in play style did not really fit me, I did not want to buy 3/4 seraph/neraph kits so I could play competitively, the list goes on... Then I picked up a few cheap Protectorate lots, liked them way more, and have switched over almost completely.
|
|
|
Post by WantonRanger on Oct 3, 2017 20:42:00 GMT
how to instantly show you have nothing real to offer... sanctimonious comment and childish internet meme. thanks for your continuing input. There are some factions, and I repeat again, not just protectorate that receive much less "enthusiasim" than others. I don't think PP hates us or anything ridiculous and I wasn't asking for us to become like all the overpowered factions you have played up to now. Glad you joined the crew... sigh Yet your complaining was something "real to offer"?? To me it did not, so I replied in kind. Until you have something constructive to discuss other than "PP hates, but not really, My faction, but also others, because we don't get any attention, but we just had more models in CiD than anyone else last cycle." Then I see no reason to do anything but slander your high-and-mighty attitude. another sanctimonious comment and another stupid internet meme. So when you are ready... stop gently stroking your neckbeard and realise that my "complaining", or out in the adult world an opinion, is just as valid as your anecdotal story and your paraphrasing the words "Hate" into my mouth and then telling me what I mean. Circle had the most models in the last CID you complete tool. At least bring facts to your rambling.
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 3, 2017 21:09:22 GMT
Yet your complaining was something "real to offer"?? To me it did not, so I replied in kind. Until you have something constructive to discuss other than "PP hates, but not really, My faction, but also others, because we don't get any attention, but we just had more models in CiD than anyone else last cycle." Then I see no reason to do anything but slander your high-and-mighty attitude. another sanctimonious comment and another stupid internet meme. So when you are ready... stop gently stroking your neckbeard and realise that my "complaining", or out in the adult world an opinion, is just as valid as your anecdotal story and your paraphrasing the words "Hate" into my mouth and then telling me what I mean. Circle had the most models in the last CID you complete tool. At least bring facts to your rambling. You really like that word don't you? "Sanctimonious!" "Sanctimonious!" it's adorable. Maybe one day you'll understand your way of using it is broadcasting your own self held superiority. But I digress... So if both opinion and anecdotal story are "valid". Why did you start arguing that my story was not something I could base my perspective off of? Just because it differed from other existing perspectives/opinions your flew off into a passive aggressive attack on character, experience, and opinion of another person. Also please understand that when the entirety of you post has been, in fact, hateful towards a person. They can only take any "opinion" you are expressing with the same negative connotation. So you gave me no reason to not assume the connotation of whining/complaining/etc when you go on about how poorly PP has treated everything but Cryx and not paying attention and not doing you any favors and the paladin not being liked and ignored and on and on... But yes I should have specified Protectorate had the most in CiD for Warmachine. Circle did get the most from hordes. Ya got me! So -
|
|
|
Post by Cryptix on Oct 3, 2017 23:57:14 GMT
Alright, the bickering needs to stop yesterday. You're all adults, now act like it.
|
|
|
Post by streetpizza on Oct 4, 2017 13:58:18 GMT
@forever_Blight Just wanna say, that you and I seem to have an opposite view on Legion/Protectorate I started during the game the last year of Mk2 with the two factions and when Mk3 I got really bummed with PoM and focused more on Legion. This is the best thing you've written as its emblematic of the real problem. During an edition change people are much more likely to think that their primary faction changed for the worse and a faction swap is usually the best medicine. ForEver_blight solved his with a change to protectorate and I swapped over from Cygnar/Circle (not feeling either of those with the changes). Maybe all you need is a change of perspective from the outside for a bit.
|
|
|
Post by bskhacker on Oct 4, 2017 14:29:07 GMT
Maybe all you need is a change of perspective from the outside for a bit. I agree I believe that some people need a new perspective. Being someone that doesn't get the opportunity to play as much as I would like,(in mk2 it was only a few games a month if I was lucky to only playing a total of one game in mk3 and it was a battle box game to teach a new player. But life can be like that sometimes, but at least there's time to paint.) and get my experience with the game via other ways I didn't feel too bitter about the change to mk3. I feel that this faction still has the elements that I fell in love with. We still have angry knights and fire out the wazoo. We still have denial and try to make our opponent play around models or make a hard choice. We still have cool stompy robots and awesome support for them. Are some aspects in other factions? Yes that can happen, but I feel that all the factions not just ours share some elements, and that's not a bad things. The factions still feel different to me and that's what makes me happy.
|
|
Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
|
Post by Lanz on Oct 5, 2017 2:47:25 GMT
ForEver_Blight For the record, that 10pt PS24 monstrosity is saddled with: Choir Caster Spell Range Nearby units SPD4 MAT6 base, not sure where you're getting MAT10 from. And for the fire debate, do you think it'd be weird if suddenly they gave electro leap and ionization to everyone? What about if Khador or someone else reverse engineered Storm Tech and basically copied all the storm knights and smiths? While nit quite as drastic, that's how Protectorate players are feeling. Finally, if you're sick of crappy Legion/Hordes instead of Protectorate, take a look at Cryx or Cygnar. Oh wait, you have the moral superiority of not wanting to play OP factions. So let's play a middling faction for hipster points. Not saying these are your thoughts, just how I interpreted your writing over the internet. They gave lightning to Circle. Look at Druids, mistriders, storm raptor, and Krueger. It's already happened. I don't see any torches and pitch forks there. Why? because it wasn't "your" tech/faction. You're clearly being selfish about your toys. Well, no, actually. You've found a very important point, but missed its real relevance here. Contrary to the accusation of faction bias, the fact remains that Cygnar players generally aren't that miffed about other factions getting lightning. Nor are khador players about players getting ice, nor cryx about others getting corrosion. There's a very good reason why. A circle player could take every lightning-themed option at their disposal, and they wouldn't come anywhere close to invading upon Cygnar's playstyle. That's because cygnar isn't just defined by being 'the lightning faction' in the same way that Protectorate is heavily defined by being 'the fire faction'. The four starting factions all have their elemental theme, not necessarily any more relevant than their model aesthetic, but none of them depend on it as heavily for their identity as Protectorate does. Once upon a time, neither did Protectorate, but with so many themes winnowed out, it's one of the few that remains. If a circle player wants to take Krueger with storm raptors and druids, it's still going to play fundamentally-different from a Nemo list filled with Stormnouns, because both those factions have a lot of other identifying factors beyond that little lightning-bolt symbol. On the protectorate side, however, where the themes can literally boil down to blasts + fire, all it takes is a random caster with something outlandish, like, say mass immunity to fire, or Field Marshal: Continuous Fire, and suddenly protectorate's 'distinct' gameplay is threatened.
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 5, 2017 12:37:51 GMT
Well, no, actually. You've found a very important point, but missed its real relevance here. Contrary to the accusation of faction bias, the fact remains that Cygnar players generally aren't that miffed about other factions getting lightning. Nor are khador players about players getting ice, nor cryx about others getting corrosion. There's a very good reason why. A circle player could take every lightning-themed option at their disposal, and they wouldn't come anywhere close to invading upon Cygnar's playstyle. That's because cygnar isn't just defined by being 'the lightning faction' in the same way that Protectorate is heavily defined by being 'the fire faction'. The four starting factions all have their elemental theme, not necessarily any more relevant than their model aesthetic, but none of them depend on it as heavily for their identity as Protectorate does. Once upon a time, neither did Protectorate, but with so many themes winnowed out, it's one of the few that remains. If a circle player wants to take Krueger with storm raptors and druids, it's still going to play fundamentally-different from a Nemo list filled with Stormnouns, because both those factions have a lot of other identifying factors beyond that little lightning-bolt symbol. On the protectorate side, however, where the themes can literally boil down to blasts + fire, all it takes is a random caster with something outlandish, like, say mass immunity to fire, or Field Marshal: Continuous Fire, and suddenly protectorate's 'distinct' gameplay is threatened. I can understand. But currently, none of the Protectorate themes forces rely on fire damage. None of their non-caster models require the target be on fire to operate at their base rules. Fire is a big part of what some of their kit can benefit from, Feoras and Malekus being the stand outs. But in the same way that you don't drop Nemo into an opposing storm division. Don't drop Malekus into Kallus 2. That's not to mention that other than the fire immunity, Kallus' spell is near entirely pointless. I've never once had the cont. fire effect proc for a whole host of reason/faults. And he just has flat out better things to spend fury on. I would willingly throw away that dumb spell any day of the week. Would that clear up every bit of salt? Hardly. But I digress... Ignoring that, Krueger has a spell to grant blanket lightning immunity over a large ctrl range. Is that not the same argument? Or, am I to take that you are saying Protectorate's only "theme" or identity is blast and fire damage? I would argue they have a much better identity of elite infantry, fantastic special rule warjacks, and (yes, still) Denial. In the end Legion's ONE caster fits the bill for what you are describing for Circle. We play entirely different games. We do not overlap or steal away tech from PoM. Protectorate has sooooo much more going for it than fire rolls. And again I would be more than happy to see any other spell on Kallus' card. But even if Kallus 2 never existed they'd just find something else to call out as the reason for their misery. I mean come on it's 1 caster out of likely more than a hundred. A caster that is not well designed in any regard. But just because he has 1 spell and his feat relies entirely on a status effect we can't reliably put out... Protectorate is in ruin? If you want I can literally put Kallus 2 armies together and test all my PoM stuff into it and give you battle reports. I can give advice on how to beat his tech. Ruin our day. Etc... I'd love to find a way to help everyone get over the obstacle.
|
|
|
Post by c0deb1ue on Oct 5, 2017 15:18:42 GMT
Well, no, actually. You've found a very important point, but missed its real relevance here. Contrary to the accusation of faction bias, the fact remains that Cygnar players generally aren't that miffed about other factions getting lightning. Nor are khador players about players getting ice, nor cryx about others getting corrosion. There's a very good reason why. A circle player could take every lightning-themed option at their disposal, and they wouldn't come anywhere close to invading upon Cygnar's playstyle. That's because cygnar isn't just defined by being 'the lightning faction' in the same way that Protectorate is heavily defined by being 'the fire faction'. The four starting factions all have their elemental theme, not necessarily any more relevant than their model aesthetic, but none of them depend on it as heavily for their identity as Protectorate does. Once upon a time, neither did Protectorate, but with so many themes winnowed out, it's one of the few that remains. If a circle player wants to take Krueger with storm raptors and druids, it's still going to play fundamentally-different from a Nemo list filled with Stormnouns, because both those factions have a lot of other identifying factors beyond that little lightning-bolt symbol. On the protectorate side, however, where the themes can literally boil down to blasts + fire, all it takes is a random caster with something outlandish, like, say mass immunity to fire, or Field Marshal: Continuous Fire, and suddenly protectorate's 'distinct' gameplay is threatened. I can understand. But currently, none of the Protectorate themes forces rely on fire damage. None of their non-caster models require the target be on fire to operate at their base rules. Fire is a big part of what some of their kit can benefit from, Feoras and Malekus being the stand outs. But in the same way that you don't drop Nemo into an opposing storm division. Don't drop Malekus into Kallus 2. That's not to mention that other than the fire immunity, Kallus' spell is near entirely pointless. I've never once had the cont. fire effect proc for a whole host of reason/faults. And he just has flat out better things to spend fury on. I would willingly throw away that dumb spell any day of the week. Would that clear up every bit of salt? Hardly. But I digress... Ignoring that, Krueger has a spell to grant blanket lightning immunity over a large ctrl range. Is that not the same argument? Or, am I to take that you are saying Protectorate's only "theme" or identity is blast and fire damage? I would argue they have a much better identity of elite infantry, fantastic special rule warjacks, and (yes, still) Denial. In the end Legion's ONE caster fits the bill for what you are describing for Circle. We play entirely different games. We do not overlap or steal away tech from PoM. Protectorate has sooooo much more going for it than fire rolls. And again I would be more than happy to see any other spell on Kallus' card. But even if Kallus 2 never existed they'd just find something else to call out as the reason for their misery. I mean come on it's 1 caster out of likely more than a hundred. A caster that is not well designed in any regard. But just because he has 1 spell and his feat relies entirely on a status effect we can't reliably put out... Protectorate is in ruin? If you want I can literally put Kallus 2 armies together and test all my PoM stuff into it and give you battle reports. I can give advice on how to beat his tech. Ruin our day. Etc... I'd love to find a way to help everyone get over the obstacle. I would say this is reasonably on point. But would say you very much overstate the other identities. All factions have elite infantry (we have a shed ton of weaponmaster stuff of very varying effectiveness - as does skorne, our hordes equiv), our special rule warjacks (did you mean character jacks) are now on the whole extremely unavailable as they have to fit theme ( I am hoping that something is done about this) and the denial aspect of our game is not particularly strong but very fluff for anti-magic. This is all fine really as I don't think many other factions have oodles of unique stuff. I'm hoping our 5th theme plays on fire in someway so that feora's and Malekus can start kicking (fire) ass and maybe EoT will see some theme time. I think sharing rules will make the game better as it will reduce rule bloat and give most people access to a variety of playstyles in their faction (give or take mild skews to some factions who will specialise a bit more). I imagine identity will drift more and more towards fluff/aesthetics which is no bad thing. The only annoying thing is that it seems SR2017 has pushed all our high mobility casters into the limelight as it's very anti slow/short threat style factions and gunlines are not doing particularly well presently (may be my local meta). I think it's no surprise that Amon has been fantastic for ages as he cures protectorates slow and increased the threat range a mile. I feel our weaknesses are far more obvious than our strengths (we have some exceptional warcasters).
|
|
thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
|
Post by thelat on Oct 5, 2017 15:23:41 GMT
I think there is also unspoken frustration about how much denial game the Protectorate has lost since MkI.
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 5, 2017 16:56:01 GMT
I would say this is reasonably on point. But would say you very much overstate the other identities. All factions have elite infantry (we have a shed ton of weaponmaster stuff of very varying effectiveness - as does skorne, our hordes equiv), our special rule warjacks (did you mean character jacks) are now on the whole extremely unavailable as they have to fit theme ( I am hoping that something is done about this) and the denial aspect of our game is not particularly strong but very fluff for anti-magic. This is all fine really as I don't think many other factions have oodles of unique stuff. I'm hoping our 5th theme plays on fire in someway so that feora's and Malekus can start kicking (fire) ass and maybe EoT will see some theme time. I think sharing rules will make the game better as it will reduce rule bloat and give most people access to a variety of playstyles in their faction (give or take mild skews to some factions who will specialise a bit more). I imagine identity will drift more and more towards fluff/aesthetics which is no bad thing. The only annoying thing is that it seems SR2017 has pushed all our high mobility casters into the limelight as it's very anti slow/short threat style factions and gunlines are not doing particularly well presently (may be my local meta). I think it's no surprise that Amon has been fantastic for ages as he cures protectorates slow and increased the threat range a mile. I feel our weaknesses are far more obvious than our strengths (we have some exceptional warcasters). First - Absolutely agree. Where as strengths may not be starkly defined and above the curve. Weakness do end up being very clear and exploitable. Clarification on my part - I meant all of the jacks, not just characters. Though PoM character jacks have vastly different and very powerful abilities, the non-characters have very influential mechanics as well. Reckoner - flare, vigilant - thresher, Vigilant - roadblock, Indictor - sacred ward, Guardian - arc node, Templar - shield guard, Sanctifier - soul collection and anti-incorporeal, etc... I'm not saying that anything is terribly powerful. But they are clear rules that always serve a purpose and make a meaningful reason to choose one jack over another. Right now I love the idea of an Indictor under durant1. Arm 23 spell, push, knockdown immune zone control/contest piece. Does that mean it will work every time or that I want it in every list? No. But the power of the combination is there. Many battlegroup models don't have that. If they do have a major utility it's tied to an attack type or an imprint/animus which costs resources. As for SR2017 - Yes this is absolutely a big deal. It's not just PoM that has had a community shift towards high mobility options. Abby2 is still the crowd favorite for a reason; alpha hunter proc grants +2speed and can be done every turn. I'm really trying to work with Thyra right now due to the movement feat. But it's difficult for anyone without access to something that starts fast, or can be made faster.
|
|
|
Post by paradox on Oct 5, 2017 17:02:10 GMT
RE: fire theme. We have themes that strip opposing abilities (AD, now Ambush). One great bonus for a fire theme would be stripping fire immunity from enemies. Lose and cant gain. Then you can include non-character jacks with fire type, or crit/cont fire. Same with troops and solos.
Fill some holes with themey pieces (VoJ, Book both spread fire. Add choir, misc support), some additional bonuses. Done.
|
|