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Post by greytemplar on Oct 2, 2017 22:37:27 GMT
Faithful Masses is definitely not the stars. It's good, but you have a seriously flawed viewpoint if you think it compensates for all the issues Protectorate has. It's a step in the right direction for sure, it's gonna be a while though.
I'd be ok with Cygnar getting a model/unit upkeep for boosted/additional die lightning damage.
Oil is also a rule that Protectorate should, and indeed deserves to, get. It's thematic and would actually turn Fire damage from a liability into an asset.
And yes, if other factions get abilities which would be amazing with our core themes and we don't get stuff equally strong with them, yes we lose something. It's wasted #designspace that could be somewhere it is interesting. The Fire faction should have the best fire synergy in the game. Just like Cygnar should have the strongest lightning synergy in the game. Cygnar gets that, but Protectorate doesn't get the same for fire. It's not equitable.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 3, 2017 13:13:16 GMT
So should I be all up in arms that Ret got a better version of my crappy legionnaires? Should I be arguing that they stole my factions design space?
Should I have to give up my Archangel to Protectorate just because it has a fire based gun?
Your faction does not OWN fire or any rules that play off of the effect. It's beyond egotistic to believe that only one faction should have access to powerful tools based on a game mechanic.
I do not want any part of the game you imagine WM/H should be. Faithful Masses is disgustingly powerful. Where Hordes get themes that barely even function, then the ones that due are immediately nerfed because "reasons". Try and take a break from Protectorate for a bit. Play anything else, doesn't even have to be a dumpster fire faction like trolls. Just anything else. Get a new perspective on balance. Mat 10 Pow 24 on a 10 point jack is not the premiere yard stick for "balance".
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Post by chillychinaman on Oct 3, 2017 14:21:56 GMT
ForEver_BlightFor the record, that 10pt PS24 monstrosity is saddled with: Choir Caster Spell Range Nearby units SPD4 MAT6 base, not sure where you're getting MAT10 from. And for the fire debate, do you think it'd be weird if suddenly they gave electro leap and ionization to everyone? What about if Khador or someone else reverse engineered Storm Tech and basically copied all the storm knights and smiths? While nit quite as drastic, that's how Protectorate players are feeling. Finally, if you're sick of crappy Legion/Hordes instead of Protectorate, take a look at Cryx or Cygnar. Oh wait, you have the moral superiority of not wanting to play OP factions. So let's play a middling faction for hipster points. Not saying these are your thoughts, just how I interpreted your writing over the internet.
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Post by streetpizza on Oct 3, 2017 14:29:42 GMT
And for the fire debate, do you think it'd be weird if suddenly they gave electro leap and ionization to everyone? What about if Khador or someone else reverse engineered Storm Tech and basically copied all the storm knights and smiths? While nit quite as drastic, that's how Protectorate players are feeling. Convergeance has a full on lightning based colossal and a heavy that shoots lightning guns and Ret has house Vyre Electromancers, the storm troll is a thing that exists all while circle is tossing out e-leaps like its going out of style. A full on pKreuger list with mist riders, fulcrum and the storm raptor will give Nemo a run for his money on electro leap volume. So your point was?
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 3, 2017 14:42:58 GMT
ForEver_Blight For the record, that 10pt PS24 monstrosity is saddled with: Choir Caster Spell Range Nearby units SPD4 MAT6 base, not sure where you're getting MAT10 from. And for the fire debate, do you think it'd be weird if suddenly they gave electro leap and ionization to everyone? What about if Khador or someone else reverse engineered Storm Tech and basically copied all the storm knights and smiths? While nit quite as drastic, that's how Protectorate players are feeling. Finally, if you're sick of crappy Legion/Hordes instead of Protectorate, take a look at Cryx or Cygnar. Oh wait, you have the moral superiority of not wanting to play OP factions. So let's play a middling faction for hipster points. Not saying these are your thoughts, just how I interpreted your writing over the internet. So if you can't for certain say what my thoughts are, why make a heel of yourself by flipping out? You could have just civilly asked "what do you mean by [blah]?" I never claimed moral superiority. I own both Khador and Cryx. I do have the personal preference to not play something broken. How can you fault me for trying to play a balanced faction!?! I thought that's what people actually wanted to see. But apparently not... Protectorate was the first game opponenet I played against in the start of MK2. Since then I have always liked their aesthetic over anything else. So I ditched the power faction that I bought for cheap when people went running for the hills. Why does that make me a bad person to you? Seriously, Why? How? Or are you just being spiteful because I disagree with people's whining? (I can make wild interpretation too. Doesn't make it right does it?) They gave lightning to Circle. Look at Druids, mistriders, storm raptor, and Krueger. It's already happened. I don't see any torches and pitch forks there. Why? because it wasn't "your" tech/faction. You're clearly being selfish about your toys. Lastly - I'm playing Thyra in FM right now. Carnage and HoV = Mat 10. Pow is Silence of Death, HoV, and Battle. All things that are inherently in the list every single turn and not some far fetched left field scenario. It's easy as hell to set up especially with a caster who teleports 6" to safety at the end of the turn. What you are trying to portray as difficult is something I, as a terrible first time player of the faction, was able to set up without any real effort what so ever. With a full unit of Zealots and a full unit of Idrains there's no way you can F* up the board so much that you don't have some dude within 5" of a jack. Hell I screwed up positioning so bad I locked BoM from aparating two turns in a row. My santifier was not able to feat move around a wall. Yet I still had the easiest game into Cygnar since MK3 started.
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Post by chillychinaman on Oct 3, 2017 17:54:43 GMT
Sorry about that last post, I had no idea about the Convergence stuff, and I just completely forgot about Circle.
As for FM, the PS24 MAT10 combo in particular relies on a single caster choice in the faction and can only be applied to 1-2 jacks, depending on whether or not you mind camping 0 or brought a Hierophant. Don't take it as a baseline for the faction.
Moving on, regardless of the power level of FM or PoM as a whole, what's eating at some of the playerbase is the seemingly constant hesitance from PP when handling the faction. Following on the heals of a faction like Cryx getting Carapace and Gang, PoM has gotten the much maligned Paladin Dragoon from CID and a nerfed FM, because apparently 1 casters is so powerful it much dictate the power level of the entire faction.
In Mk3 PoM has gotten Malekus, EoT, Paladin, and 4 themes. Of the 3 models, Malekus is a mostly crappy caster and most everyone hated the Paladin. On the theme side, I'd be be willing to wager that most people played Guardians only because of the model choice and not for the strength of the rules, kinda like CotD, Creators and Interdiction only indirectly buff the desired models. There was also the awful joke involving Vengers that just leaves a really bad taste in the players mouths.
Finally, as a relative outsider, what do see as the PoM strengths, gimmicks, themes(not forces), or tricks?
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 3, 2017 18:48:20 GMT
I can recite a laundry list of nerfs to Legion in the transition. I don't want to make this about what X or Y Faction lost but Z gained. You cannot compare arm 17 jacks getting carapaces to arm 19 jacks with access to "no shooting"/"no spelling"/shields/cloak of ash. There is give and take and they are major points that cannot be ignored.
Malekus suffers from having to be balanced as a battle box caster. Look at the popularity of Tanith, Kryssa, Kozlov, Agathia, and Maddox. Do you ever see those competitively? Cygnar hates Maddoxs to death. If I mention Kryssa it's heresy. The best caster to come out of the boxes was Ragnor (or how ever it's spelled) So you're not alone in being balanced.
Interdiction doesn't make a ton of sense to me. I'll give you that. It's very much like CotD; buffing models you don't want to take. But having a theme with access to all the weaponmaster stuff is still great weaponmaster units/solo. (Everyone has problems delivering infantry of any flavor. It's part of the trade off. I've not seen any theme address that yet. and No ambush doesn't count, it's a dumb cop out)
As for Strengths. Protectorate has fantastic casters. The unique rules of their jacks are always meaningful so the choices are important. You have access to utility everywhere; arc nodes, cheaper spells, damage buffs, defensive tech, denial, healing, etc. You have the most weapon master infantry in the game. You have cheap jamming units and you have expensive combat monsters. You can take a range supplement to a melee army without trading much away. And whether you believe it or not you have a TON of denial. I don't have the time to list them all but - Sanctifiers take souls and remove incorp. Magic weapons galore, Reznik 1 says no focus/fury, Testament takes souls, Durst brick like crazy, Kreos 2 ignores Def, Kroes 3 removes upkeeps/animi, Book says no knock down, choir, Sevy 1 says no spells, Harbinger has half a dozen nope's, Knight errant says he dies instead and are blessed, High reclaimer "nah, my dudes come back", Zealots say no spells and "dudes come back", Vindictus says no charging/spells/ranged, and on and on and on and on...
Protectorate is a jack of all trades Master of "No". I can't look through the roster and pick more than a handful of things I would not buy or play. Mainly bastions and Cinerators right now. But I have 2 units of warspears and they never saw table time either. It's a deficiency in the current game that is measurably being addressed.
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Post by WantonRanger on Oct 3, 2017 19:04:20 GMT
ForEver_Blight For the record, that 10pt PS24 monstrosity is saddled with: Choir Caster Spell Range Nearby units SPD4 MAT6 base, not sure where you're getting MAT10 from. And for the fire debate, do you think it'd be weird if suddenly they gave electro leap and ionization to everyone? What about if Khador or someone else reverse engineered Storm Tech and basically copied all the storm knights and smiths? While nit quite as drastic, that's how Protectorate players are feeling. Finally, if you're sick of crappy Legion/Hordes instead of Protectorate, take a look at Cryx or Cygnar. Oh wait, you have the moral superiority of not wanting to play OP factions. So let's play a middling faction for hipster points. Not saying these are your thoughts, just how I interpreted your writing over the internet. So if you can't for certain say what my thoughts are, why make a heel of yourself by flipping out? You could have just civilly asked "what do you mean by [blah]?" I never claimed moral superiority. I own both Khador and Cryx. I do have the personal preference to not play something broken. How can you fault me for trying to play a balanced faction!?! I thought that's what people actually wanted to see. But apparently not... Protectorate was the first game opponenet I played against in the start of MK2. Since then I have always liked their aesthetic over anything else. So I ditched the power faction that I bought for cheap when people went running for the hills. Why does that make me a bad person to you? Seriously, Why? How? Or are you just being spiteful because I disagree with people's whining? (I can make wild interpretation too. Doesn't make it right does it?) They gave lightning to Circle. Look at Druids, mistriders, storm raptor, and Krueger. It's already happened. I don't see any torches and pitch forks there. Why? because it wasn't "your" tech/faction. You're clearly being selfish about your toys. Lastly - I'm playing Thyra in FM right now. Carnage and HoV = Mat 10. Pow is Silence of Death, HoV, and Battle. All things that are inherently in the list every single turn and not some far fetched left field scenario. It's easy as hell to set up especially with a caster who teleports 6" to safety at the end of the turn. What you are trying to portray as difficult is something I, as a terrible first time player of the faction, was able to set up without any real effort what so ever. With a full unit of Zealots and a full unit of Idrains there's no way you can F* up the board so much that you don't have some dude within 5" of a jack. Hell I screwed up positioning so bad I locked BoM from aparating two turns in a row. My santifier was not able to feat move around a wall. Yet I still had the easiest game into Cygnar since MK3 started. I am glad that your completely anecdotal account of a game you once had can just override all the experiences of all the longer term players. Thanks for sorting that out. PP has done us no favours for years. Malekus is a poor caster in protectorate and literally one of our best jacks is just saddled to him... he doesn't function in any of the themes (so it's basically unusable presently). The Revelator took 3 years to appear and the paladin champion was not popular in CID because he was boring as f**k despite having a sweet model. Meanwhile the 75% of staff who work on cryx just churned out insider after insider with higher power buffs and 2 themes that already have skewed the entire game. There are whole subsets of models being churned out for other factions but they can't even CID the large number of non-functioning models in our faction, let alone having the creativity to create something new. We are not the only ones being practically ignored in terms of the companies enthusiasm but we are definitely one of them. PP are just very complacent about a good number of factions in the game and it has not gone unnoticed. Balanced factions only work if all other factions are balanced. not the case in this game.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 3, 2017 19:04:37 GMT
As for FM, the PS24 MAT10 combo in particular relies on a single caster choice in the faction and can only be applied to 1-2 jacks, depending on whether or not you mind camping 0 or brought a Hierophant. Don't take it as a baseline for the faction. Amon - Mat 11 Pow 25 Reznik 1 - Mat 8 boosted Pow 22 boosted Sevy 1 - Mat 9 Pow 23 (blanket buff, no resources required) Reznik 2 - Mat 10 Pow 22 blessed Durant 1 - Mat 8-13 Pow 22-27 (Manifest destiny) Kreoss 2 - Mat auto-hit Pow 22 + additional attack Baseline for the Crusader in FM is Mat 8 Pow 22 for 10 points. Can that be agreed on? Choir-Battle is in every list. If not the list builder might just be drunk. Even a single unit of holy Zealots can be enough to trigger HoV for 2-3 turns. Which is enough to be considered "the game" (turn 2-5).
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 3, 2017 19:09:59 GMT
I am glad that your completely anecdotal account of a game you once had can just override all the experiences of all the longer term players. Thanks for sorting that out. PP has done us no favours for years. Malekus is a poor caster in protectorate and literally one of our best jacks is just saddled to him... he doesn't function in any of the themes (so it's basically unusable presently). The Revelator took 3 years to appear and the paladin champion was not popular in CID because he was boring as f**k despite having a sweet model. Meanwhile the 75% of staff who work on cryx just churned out insider after insider with higher power buffs and 2 themes that already have skewed the entire game. There are whole subsets of models being churned out for other factions but they can't even CID the large number of non-functioning models in our faction, let alone having the creativity to create something new. We are not the only ones being practically ignored in terms of the companies enthusiasm but we are definitely one of them. PP are just very complacent about a good number of factions in the game and it has not gone unnoticed. Balanced factions only work if all other factions are balanced. not the case in this game. Excuse me for playing this game for 10 years and knowing how blatantly easy it is to play a faction that's actually balanced. Cryx is going off the rails. That in no F*ing way means everything else needs to follow it. Go play Legion MK3 release rules for the next 6 months and get back to me. No themes, no hellmouths, no warlords, no Azrael, no erratas. Until then, you dropped something -
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Post by streetpizza on Oct 3, 2017 19:10:37 GMT
Sorry about that last post, I had no idea about the Convergence stuff, and I just completely forgot about Circle. As for FM, the PS24 MAT10 combo in particular relies on a single caster choice in the faction and can only be applied to 1-2 jacks, depending on whether or not you mind camping 0 or brought a Hierophant. Don't take it as a baseline for the faction. Moving on, regardless of the power level of FM or PoM as a whole, what's eating at some of the playerbase is the seemingly constant hesitance from PP when handling the faction. Following on the heals of a faction like Cryx getting Carapace and Gang, PoM has gotten the much maligned Paladin Dragoon from CID and a nerfed FM, because apparently 1 casters is so powerful it much dictate the power level of the entire faction. In Mk3 PoM has gotten Malekus, EoT, Paladin, and 4 themes. Of the 3 models, Malekus is a mostly crappy caster and most everyone hated the Paladin. On the theme side, I'd be be willing to wager that most people played Guardians only because of the model choice and not for the strength of the rules, kinda like CotD, Creators and Interdiction only indirectly buff the desired models. There was also the awful joke involving Vengers that just leaves a really bad taste in the players mouths. Finally, as a relative outsider, what do see as the PoM strengths, gimmicks, themes(not forces), or tricks? Again, you're point? Look at all factions that haven't had a CID cylce type major release and the stuff that those who did got before their major release. Cygnar - Maddox (crap) - Brickhouse (situational overcosted crap) - Gun mage solo dude (not bad but only in a theme that's crap) - Nerfs Cryx - Agathia (crap) - Kharibdyss (crap) - New ghost solo for magic weapons in ghost fleet (yay) - CID buffs! (yay) Khador - Koslov (crap) - Greylord dude (Great!) - Iron fang solo (crap) - Nerfs! Ret - Helynna (good) - Hemera (crap) - LIght jacks (good) CoC - Laughs at your Female Doging about regular releases Trolls - Ragnor (good) - Chain ball troll (maybe good?) Circle - Tannith (decent) - Loki (excellent) - Wold Wight (meh) - Nerfs Legion - Kryssa (crap) - Azreal (awesome) - Witches (maybe crap) Skorne - Xekaar (crap) - Morg 3 (decent) - Chiron (meh) - Jalaam (probablly meh) - BUFFS! but can you really fault them? So yeah. Everybody is on the same track with their non themed release schedule right now. Grymkin was the focus for the start of MKIII and it shows. PP does not hate you or your faction. Suck it up enjoy the game and see what comes around when its Protectorate's turn for a themed release.
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Post by chillychinaman on Oct 3, 2017 19:41:17 GMT
The notable faction releases for me, was: Cygnar: Trenchers Khador: Themes maybe? Ret: 4Shade & Nyss Trolls: no comment here, though Seaking is kinda cool Circle: no comment Legion: Hellmouth & Warlords(non-theme) Skorne: Rework Those were the things that stood out for me. For discussions sake, I'll concede that everyone is "mostly" on the same track and going forward Mk3 releases will be theme oriented. And so to move the discussion back into a more positive light, I want to reiterate: What do you all see as the strengths, gimmicks, themes(not forces), or tricks of the PoM faction?
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Post by WantonRanger on Oct 3, 2017 19:42:14 GMT
I am glad that your completely anecdotal account of a game you once had can just override all the experiences of all the longer term players. Thanks for sorting that out. PP has done us no favours for years. Malekus is a poor caster in protectorate and literally one of our best jacks is just saddled to him... he doesn't function in any of the themes (so it's basically unusable presently). The Revelator took 3 years to appear and the paladin champion was not popular in CID because he was boring as f**k despite having a sweet model. Meanwhile the 75% of staff who work on cryx just churned out insider after insider with higher power buffs and 2 themes that already have skewed the entire game. There are whole subsets of models being churned out for other factions but they can't even CID the large number of non-functioning models in our faction, let alone having the creativity to create something new. We are not the only ones being practically ignored in terms of the companies enthusiasm but we are definitely one of them. PP are just very complacent about a good number of factions in the game and it has not gone unnoticed. Balanced factions only work if all other factions are balanced. not the case in this game. Excuse me for playing this game for 10 years and knowing how blatantly easy it is to play a faction that's actually balanced. Cryx is going off the rails. That in no F*ing way means everything else needs to follow it. Go play Legion MK3 release rules for the next 6 months and get back to me. No themes, no hellmouths, no warlords, no Azrael, no erratas. Until then, you dropped something - how to instantly show you have nothing real to offer... sanctimonious comment and childish internet meme. thanks for your continuing input. There are some factions, and I repeat again, not just protectorate that receive much less "enthusiasim" than others. I don't think PP hates us or anything ridiculous and I wasn't asking for us to become like all the overpowered factions you have played up to now. Glad you joined the crew... sigh
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Post by streetpizza on Oct 3, 2017 19:53:21 GMT
What do you all see as the strengths, gimmicks, themes(not forces), or tricks of the PoM faction? ForEver_Blight has already listed them for you. Either you choose not to read his posts or you're just being willfully ignorant at this point. There are more there then what he's discussed however you shouldn't need others to do that for you. If you can't suss out what protectorate can do then no wonder you're having difficulty here.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 3, 2017 19:55:17 GMT
how to instantly show you have nothing real to offer... sanctimonious comment and childish internet meme. thanks for your continuing input. There are some factions, and I repeat again, not just protectorate that receive much less "enthusiasim" than others. I don't think PP hates us or anything ridiculous and I wasn't asking for us to become like all the overpowered factions you have played up to now. Glad you joined the crew... sigh Yet your complaining was something "real to offer"?? To me it did not, so I replied in kind. Until you have something constructive to discuss other than "PP hates, but not really, My faction, but also others, because we don't get any attention, but we just had more models in CiD than anyone else last cycle." Then I see no reason to do anything but slander your high-and-mighty attitude.
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