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Post by snarlyyow on Sept 28, 2017 16:51:49 GMT
The rerolls on damage rolls is really interesting. I tried to find some data online to see the average of 2d6 with a reroll but could not. The data is strange because you have two possible results in this game:
A Binary Result - A Single wound model either dies or does not. The "quantity" of damage done is irrelevant. A non-binary result - Damaging any model with boxes. Damage rolls may or may not kill the model.
I wanted to see what the odds of killing an arm 18 single wound model were with rerolls. I took out two dice and started rolling.
In all I rolled 75 theoretical damage rolls, not including rerolls or, to put it another way, 75 long gunners trying to kill an ARM18 model. If I failed to roll a 9 on the first roll, I rerolled the dice trying to get that nine.
-In all I rolled 2D6 126 times. -These 75 rolls produced an average roll of 7.3, a little high. -Of those 75 damage rolls, I succeeded in destroying a model 43 times, or 57% of the time. -If regular long gunners were presented the same situation (and utilizing all damage rolls) they would have succeeded 43 times out of 126 rolls, or 34% of the time.
We all knew that rerolling damage rolls is better than not and skews the data but I was pretty shocked to find that you could reasonably expect to roll 9s more often than not. That alone makes Trencher Long Gunners pretty baller in my book.
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xadmar
Junior Strategist
Posts: 173
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Post by xadmar on Sept 28, 2017 21:44:15 GMT
I really hope they relook at Long Gunners or provide a conversion kit as I own a set. If they dont them I am sure they will be superb in Mark IV
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Sept 29, 2017 3:49:07 GMT
i tried and tried to make them 8/14 in cid. i posted battle reports displaying how bad they are. they did not listen!!!
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Post by droopingpuppy on Sept 29, 2017 5:58:39 GMT
I doubt that they are useful with 8/14. If they have no changes even for 8/13 I doubt for their usefulness, though such price would be the lower limit for a unit with RAT 5 & RNG 14 gun. Only reduce the price would not do much unless they have a dramatical and ridiculous amount of discounts that never happens in the real world. I bet that all of us will spam them as we can if they were 4/6 points, but PP is not fool enough commit such a folly.
With DEF 12 they are even hit by RAT 5 troopers by 58.33% even if they aren't aimed. They don't have an attachment with good support weapon, nor they can have the significant firepower either - all you can expect for them is just ten shots for one turn, nothing more, since it is too hard to apply Dual Shot in the real games or you need to put all the resource to do that.
Trencher Long Gunners are just hit the nail on their coffin. They are already in there because of their own problem.
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Post by snarlyyow on Sept 29, 2017 18:16:07 GMT
i tried and tried to make them 8/14 in cid. i posted battle reports displaying how bad they are. they did not listen!!! I played them last night and the new terrain rules really hose long gunners. I'm sure tables exist where they are okay but 8 pieces of terrain make them super sad. Also, the Command 7 (7!) or 9 with the standard bearer is pretty tough.
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Post by chillychinaman on Sept 29, 2017 19:50:39 GMT
Just a thought, would mini-feat SNIPER be viable so they can do up to 20 damage on a single target?
Edit for snipER vs snipe
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Sept 29, 2017 20:03:41 GMT
Just a thought, would mini-feat snipe be viable so they can do up to 20 damage on a single target? I doubt it, we have several casters with snipe and they still don't currently see play
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Post by gobber on Sept 29, 2017 20:12:10 GMT
I think he meant sniper for an autopoint of damage.
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Post by scarecrow on Sept 29, 2017 22:49:25 GMT
Just a thought, would mini-feat SNIPER be viable so they can do up to 20 damage on a single target? Edit for snipER vs snipe I doubt it for the same reason they changed the initial Llaelese theme benefit. Long Gunners could potentially destroy lists like Legion of Steel
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Post by chillychinaman on Sept 29, 2017 23:19:42 GMT
Just a thought, would mini-feat SNIPER be viable so they can do up to 20 damage on a single target? Edit for snipER vs snipe I doubt it for the same reason they changed the initial Llaelese theme benefit. Long Gunners could potentially destroy lists like Legion of Steel Oh yeah, forgot the Resistence basically had that. Oh well, can't go dethroning Khador armor now can we?
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Post by droopingpuppy on Sept 29, 2017 23:29:52 GMT
Just a thought, would mini-feat SNIPER be viable so they can do up to 10 damage on a single target? Edit for snipER vs snipe Fixed for you. Forget about Dual Shot on Long Gunner Infantry. Though it would cause more damage than 10 men CRA, but the gap is not much(average 7 vs 10) . And for 14 points you can bring A Hunter(about 6.5 damage) and one Arcane Tempest Rifleman(3 damage) to a single ARM 20 target. If you have more points you can add one rifleman or a Hunter.
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Post by snarlyyow on Sept 30, 2017 22:35:06 GMT
Just a thought, would mini-feat SNIPER be viable so they can do up to 20 damage on a single target? Edit for snipER vs snipe I doubt it for the same reason they changed the initial Llaelese theme benefit. Long Gunners could potentially destroy lists like Legion of Steel Yeah, this is basically why they are so hard to balance. Like, they are pretty strong on paper. Getting 22 shots per turn is just crazy good, CRA is great. Yadda, yadda. It's all great. So you have this massive balancing issue. I think one thing they could do to separate them from Trencher Long Gunners is to maybe get rid of CRA. If you did that you could drop their point cost waaaayyy down. Maybe even have them go back to speed 5. Whatever. Just make them super crappy but super cheap. Maybe like 6/11 if you made them shitty enough. Alternatively, getting rid of their boosted attack rolls and giving them black penny or some sort of other buff might be super sweet. They aren't bad in any traditional sense, they are very, very strong on paper. But the table state, your opponent's list composition, your ability to get enemies in range, etc, etc are all highly dependent on them being useful; that's the limiting factor.
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Post by chillychinaman on Oct 1, 2017 2:10:06 GMT
Yeah, this is basically why they are so hard to balance. Like, they are pretty strong on paper. Getting 22 shots per turn is just crazy good, CRA is great. Yadda, yadda. It's all great. So you have this massive balancing issue. I think one thing they could do to separate them from Trencher Long Gunners is to maybe get rid of CRA. If you did that you could drop their point cost waaaayyy down. Maybe even have them go back to speed 5. Whatever. Just make them super crappy but super cheap. Maybe like 6/11 if you made them shitty enough. Alternatively, getting rid of their boosted attack rolls and giving them black penny or some sort of other buff might be super sweet. They aren't bad in any traditional sense, they are very, very strong on paper. But the table state, your opponent's list composition, your ability to get enemies in range, etc, etc are all highly dependent on them being useful; that's the limiting factor. So make them into the ranged version of Sword Knights/Steelhead Riflemen? This is gonna be weird, but what if you gave them inaccurate, base Practiced Maneuvers, and dropped their cost? Aiming 2-man CRAs gets you 10 RAT5 POW12 shots, 6 RAT6 POW13 shots, or 2 RAT7 POW15 shots.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Oct 1, 2017 3:28:38 GMT
Yeah, this is basically why they are so hard to balance. Like, they are pretty strong on paper. Getting 22 shots per turn is just crazy good, CRA is great. Yadda, yadda. It's all great. So you have this massive balancing issue. I think one thing they could do to separate them from Trencher Long Gunners is to maybe get rid of CRA. If you did that you could drop their point cost waaaayyy down. Maybe even have them go back to speed 5. Whatever. Just make them super crappy but super cheap. Maybe like 6/11 if you made them shitty enough. Alternatively, getting rid of their boosted attack rolls and giving them black penny or some sort of other buff might be super sweet. They aren't bad in any traditional sense, they are very, very strong on paper. But the table state, your opponent's list composition, your ability to get enemies in range, etc, etc are all highly dependent on them being useful; that's the limiting factor. So make them into the ranged version of Sword Knights/Steelhead Riflemen? This is gonna be weird, but what if you gave them inaccurate, base Practiced Maneuvers, and dropped their cost? Aiming 2-man CRAs gets you 10 RAT5 POW12 shots, 6 RAT6 POW13 shots, or 2 RAT7 POW15 shots. Practiced Maneuvers has really no uses on them. So pass. What's the point of Inaccurate? It just results 5 RAT 3 POW 12 CRAs or 1 RAT 11 POW 20 CRA, nothing more, making them simply worse although they are already almost unplayable - you can use them but it requires a good matchup as well as forces you to spend all the resource to make function them. At least Delivers has AOE on their Skyhammer(and Arcing Fire is reserved), but they have none.
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Post by zorrobard47 on Oct 1, 2017 4:26:18 GMT
It's too bad they simply didn't give them ROF2. This would make them a more more specialized ranged unit compared to the trencher LG.
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