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Post by Azuresun on Oct 3, 2017 7:54:44 GMT
Uhhhhhhh... If you could you put that into Swahili, I might have a better chance of understanding what you are saying. They're saying that they play Cryx, simple.
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Post by pangurban on Oct 3, 2017 8:57:25 GMT
Just to make sure I am not misunderstanding you: You count a lot of Cryx players going 6:0 as a factor against Cryx being OP? No, he's saying there might be other factors. Like how good players are.
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WTC Stats
Oct 3, 2017 11:50:11 GMT
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Post by professorlust on Oct 3, 2017 11:50:11 GMT
Just to make sure I am not misunderstanding you: You count a lot of Cryx players going 6:0 as a factor against Cryx being OP? No, he's saying there might be other factors. Like how good players are. Correct. Indeed, for the uniniated, what regression does is to attempt to explain variance in outcomes, i.e. what factors help explain the differences in outcomes. I'll be typing a up a more lengthy explaination later, which will utilize multi nomal regression and several other controlling variables as well. I began this quixotic journey because way too many people looked at descriptive statistics and made type 1 errors, falsely rejecting the null hypothesis. In this case the null hypothesis that what faction you play does not have a significant relationship to your likelihood of winning. The first set of analysis posted indicates that having at least player playing cryx has no significant relationship to whether your team won any given round, so we do not reject the null. However it also indicates a significant relationship (albeit very weak) between having at least one player playing Cryx and a teams total Rd wins at the WTC. So we reject the null. Essentially in the second set of analysis we testing this null hypothesis: that having at least one player playing cryx was not a significant factor in the Total Round Wins of a Team at the WTC when we also take into account the total wins each player earned at the WTC. The analysis indicates that not only should we reject the null but that when we add the relationship between a players total match wins at the WTC and their teams total Rd Wins to our model, we actually invert the previous analysis result. To put it plainly, Instead of there being a statistically significant positive relationship between having at least one Cryx player on your team and Teams Rd Wins at the WTC, there is a statistically significant negative relationship between those two variables after factoring in individual player wins. Moreover not only did the impact of having one player play cryx both invert and it's remain significant after the addition of player wins, it weakens only slightly.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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WTC Stats
Oct 3, 2017 12:12:08 GMT
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Post by zich on Oct 3, 2017 12:12:08 GMT
I see. Maybe I'm not clever enough for this, but please bear with me: Why do you attribute player wins solely to player skill when faction choice having an influence on this can certainly not be ruled out? Or is that not what you are doing?
Or in other words: How do you decouple the factors of player strength and faction strength in their contribution towards a players wins?
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Post by Azuresun on Oct 3, 2017 12:25:55 GMT
Just to make sure I am not misunderstanding you: You count a lot of Cryx players going 6:0 as a factor against Cryx being OP? No, he's saying there might be other factors. Like how good players are. So all the best players in the game suddenly started playing Cryx for reasons totally unrelated no honest to the faction's power level? And of course, there were no weaker players who did better than normal on the back of the faction being OP at the moment.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 3, 2017 12:44:05 GMT
No, he's saying there might be other factors. Like how good players are. So all the best players in the game suddenly started playing Cryx for reasons totally unrelated no honest to the faction's power level? And of course, there were no weaker players who did better than normal on the back of the faction being OP at the moment. Just for the sake of argument, say you're playing an FPS and all guns were roughly equal in power, but one gun scares the shit out of everyone because in the right circumstances it will almost always one-shot you. Say you're a pretty decent player and you know that no specific weapon will give you any actual advantage, but one of them will give you a psychological advantage because half the players will just run away from you if they see it, which do you choose? Now, I'm not saying this is 100% applicable, but the internet echo chamber has put Cryx forward as the boogeyman of the meta, and thus, if you are already a very good player and it doesn't really matter what you play, you could use this as a psychological advantage. I know that Sascha, who played Cryx in the winning German team, also played a lot of Skorne in the past few years. I believe their Skorne player was also undefeated at the WTC, so Skorne can't be too bad, but Sascha chose to play Cryx, possibly because having a Cryx player in the team gives you a psychological edge during matchups that having an extra Skorne player doesn't give you. Personally I played Cryx at the WTC and went 3-3, every game that I lost came down to player skill, my opponent simply played better than me and/or I made a critical mistake. Cryx may be slightly above the curve, but it's definitely beatable. professorlust If I'm reading your last post correctly, you're saying that, while teams with Cryx players in them won more often, they often won by a smaller margin (3-2 rather than 4-1 or 5-0), or are you saying that the Cryx player actually lost often while the team took the win?
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WTC Stats
Oct 3, 2017 12:45:57 GMT
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Post by professorlust on Oct 3, 2017 12:45:57 GMT
I see. Maybe I'm not clever enough for this, but please bear with me: Why do you attribute player wins solely to player skill when faction choice having an influence on this can certainly not be ruled out? Or is that not what you are doing? Or in other words: How do you decouple the factors of player strength and faction strength in their contribution towards a players wins? Welcome to the quandaries of social science and the joys of post hoc analysis. Firstly, Here's a list of some the things we don't know about: Which teams chose which matchups? How many games against Cryx each team and each player played in Preparation for the WTC How each team viewed Cryx and how they worked to mitigate the faction. How many teams who took cryx did so because that player exclusively chose cryx for the "win more" (since WTC as a premier competition allows for more explicit "win more" attitude than might tolerated at LGS without such aspirations) Conversely why teams that didn't take cryx chose not to do so: i.e. cost to acquire models, effort to learn a new faction, not wanting be a "win more" player? etc. Any of these factors confound performance whether at a faction, team, or individual level. Secondly, "skill" in Warmachine is a really nebulous topic due to a number of factors. Factors that we've either refused to adopt as a global community (ELO tracking for players) or we are unable to track due to lack of proper collection mechanisms such as what actually happens in a particular game: dice spikes and their timing, the scenarios impact of scenarios in positioning, the impact of terrain etc With these two things in mind, if we want to investigate relationshipsand not just speculate about them, we have to do more than look at descriptive statistics. So I chose as a proxy for player "skill" the number of wins a player earned to determine if that was a factor on a teams overall performance. While there is collinearity between faction and individual player wins, there wasn't significant collinearity. Granted, I was using basic linear regression for this analysis and plan on using partial least squares regression and well as looking at F change as variables get added to the model to determine the impact of particular variables
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WTC Stats
Oct 3, 2017 12:47:40 GMT
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Post by professorlust on Oct 3, 2017 12:47:40 GMT
No, he's saying there might be other factors. Like how good players are. So all the best players in the game suddenly started playing Cryx for reasons totally unrelated no honest to the faction's power level? And of course, there were no weaker players who did better than normal on the back of the faction being OP at the moment. Do you have access to pre-WTC player surveys about faction selection or at the very least records of which teams chose which match ups? I'd love more data!
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Post by pangurban on Oct 3, 2017 14:10:56 GMT
No, he's saying there might be other factors. Like how good players are. So all the best players in the game suddenly started playing Cryx for reasons totally unrelated no honest to the faction's power level? And of course, there were no weaker players who did better than normal on the back of the faction being OP at the moment. The reasons why anyone did anything are not part of this analysis (we have no data about reasons). The causes of the findings of the analysis are not hypothesised about by professorlust either. Personally I'd say it looks like having a Cryx player might have had a negative effect on how effectively a team could use the matchup process to best effect, if I had to make a guess (this could explain a statistically significant effect on team round results rather than individual results, which is what we're seeing). This, by the way, would indicate nothing whatsoever about Cryx' power level. And as professorlust says, the relationship is, albeit significant, very weak.
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zeffid
Junior Strategist
Posts: 163
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Post by zeffid on Oct 3, 2017 16:03:20 GMT
I just don't understand. Most of the teams had one or more Cryx players. So this analysis should probably look at Cryx teams vs. non-Cryx teams and then is the amount of data enough for statistics?
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WTC Stats
Oct 3, 2017 19:31:02 GMT
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Post by professorlust on Oct 3, 2017 19:31:02 GMT
I just don't understand. Most of the teams had one or more Cryx players. So this analysis should probably look at Cryx teams vs. non-Cryx teams and then is the amount of data enough for statistics? Except that Teams don't play a single game, they play 5 matches, each matches players determined at a rate of 3/2. In my opinion both the matchup selection process and the The play of each player matters more than the particular faction. I can proxy players "skill" by their total wins. I can't With this data proxy matchup selection process. If we knew for example how often cryx players got "preferred" matchups (i.e. their team picked their opponent, how often cryx players got a "non preferred" matchups (i.e. Opponent picked them) then we could look to see if cryx players out performed match ups that weren't preferred. Also for those of you who understand what VIF means, the VIF for playing cryx and total individual wins is 1.112. This is an exceptionally low number for VIF as VIF below 3 are never mentioned as too collienar and only @5 do they start to become probelematic.
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WTC Stats
Oct 3, 2017 20:18:43 GMT
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Post by dazzla on Oct 3, 2017 20:18:43 GMT
Rough Reports First set of tests: Did Playing as Cryx have a significant effect on outcomes? Chi-squared tests: Team Wins Any Given Round, no Significant difference win or lose if you play cryx Team Wins, significant difference if you play cryx. Bivariate Correlations: Team Wins Any Given Round:no significant relationship between winning and playing cryx Total Team Wins at WTC: .317** Pearson's R with P<.001 for Playing Cryx and total team wins. which implies a mild but still significant positive relationship between playing cryx and a team's total wins Regression: Team Wins Any Given Round: no significant explanation of variance in wins if you play cryx Total Team Wins at WTC: .006** R^2 p<.001 if you play cryx with a B of .252 at p<.000. Which is to say that .6% of the variance in a Teams Wins at WTC can be explained by knowing if you were playing cryx or not and that playing cryx had positive relationship with team wins. So this is intriguing and I decided to investigate further, namely to find out if there confounding factors which make cryx have no impact on a given round but an impact on the team's fortunes overall. Second Round of Tests: Did Playing as Cryx have significant impact if we also control for Player "skill" by introducing Players total wins at WTC Skipping Chi-Squared Partial Correlations (not bivariate): I switched to Partial Correlations for this allow us to explore relationships in the context of other variables. Team Win Any Given Round: no significant relationship Total Team Wins at WTC: -.072 R at p<.002 if you play cryx. This indicates that if we control for the assumption that whatever faction good players play, they will play well, Playing Cryx actually had a very minor but still significant negative relationship on a Teams Wins at the WTC. Regression: Team Win Any Given Round: .032 R^2 p<.001 for the model as a whole with the Playing as Cryx was not a significant contributor while Personal Wins had a B .62 which was significant at the p<.000 level. Which is to say that 3.2% of the variance in whether a team won or lost can be attributed to a players relative skill when we also factor in whether or not they play cryx.T Total Team Wins at WTC: .191 R^2 p<.000 for the model as a whole with the Playing as Cryx had a B -.229 with a p<.002 while Personal Wins had a B .379 which was significant at the p<.000 level. This indicates that we can explain 19.1% of the variance in team wins based on knowing whether a person played cryx and their total wins at the WTC. We can also say with a mild amount of certainty that playing Cryx has a negative relationship with a teams total wins when controlling for player skill, and that Player skill had a positive relationship on a Teams Wins at the WTC IMO the results of the regression are not reliable because of multicollineraity. Player win rate and faction are likely to be correlated. The coefficients for these variables obtained from the regression are likely to be unreliable.
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WTC Stats
Oct 3, 2017 20:42:59 GMT
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Post by professorlust on Oct 3, 2017 20:42:59 GMT
Rough Reports First set of tests: Did Playing as Cryx have a significant effect on outcomes? Chi-squared tests: Team Wins Any Given Round, no Significant difference win or lose if you play cryx Team Wins, significant difference if you play cryx. Bivariate Correlations: Team Wins Any Given Round:no significant relationship between winning and playing cryx Total Team Wins at WTC: .317** Pearson's R with P<.001 for Playing Cryx and total team wins. which implies a mild but still significant positive relationship between playing cryx and a team's total wins Regression: Team Wins Any Given Round: no significant explanation of variance in wins if you play cryx Total Team Wins at WTC: .006** R^2 p<.001 if you play cryx with a B of .252 at p<.000. Which is to say that .6% of the variance in a Teams Wins at WTC can be explained by knowing if you were playing cryx or not and that playing cryx had positive relationship with team wins. So this is intriguing and I decided to investigate further, namely to find out if there confounding factors which make cryx have no impact on a given round but an impact on the team's fortunes overall. Second Round of Tests: Did Playing as Cryx have significant impact if we also control for Player "skill" by introducing Players total wins at WTC Skipping Chi-Squared Partial Correlations (not bivariate): I switched to Partial Correlations for this allow us to explore relationships in the context of other variables. Team Win Any Given Round: no significant relationship Total Team Wins at WTC: -.072 R at p<.002 if you play cryx. This indicates that if we control for the assumption that whatever faction good players play, they will play well, Playing Cryx actually had a very minor but still significant negative relationship on a Teams Wins at the WTC. Regression: Team Win Any Given Round: .032 R^2 p<.001 for the model as a whole with the Playing as Cryx was not a significant contributor while Personal Wins had a B .62 which was significant at the p<.000 level. Which is to say that 3.2% of the variance in whether a team won or lost can be attributed to a players relative skill when we also factor in whether or not they play cryx.T Total Team Wins at WTC: .191 R^2 p<.000 for the model as a whole with the Playing as Cryx had a B -.229 with a p<.002 while Personal Wins had a B .379 which was significant at the p<.000 level. This indicates that we can explain 19.1% of the variance in team wins based on knowing whether a person played cryx and their total wins at the WTC. We can also say with a mild amount of certainty that playing Cryx has a negative relationship with a teams total wins when controlling for player skill, and that Player skill had a positive relationship on a Teams Wins at the WTC IMO the results of the regression are not reliable because of multicollineraity. Player win rate and faction are likely to be correlated. The coefficients for these variables obtained from the regression are likely to be unreliable. VIF less than 1.3 for all variables.
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Post by professorlust on Oct 4, 2017 4:10:49 GMT
Okay so one final round of rough updates.
Firstly, in an attempt to disaggregate the effect of any given player playing cryx and look to the effect of having a cryx player on a team, I created an ordinal variable based on the number of players playing cryx on a given team (0, 1, 2). This gives an .052 R^2 p<.000 with a B of .452 for total Team wins at the WTC. When we add in Personal Total wins, the model improves to .314 R^2 p<.000 with a B of .320 for Cryx players on a team and .335 for Personal wins. What's really interesting is that when we look at Standardized Coefficients, Having more cryx players on your team has less effect on the standard deviation (.161) while Personal wins increased Standard beta to .408. So what the above means is that in the first model we can explain 5.2% of total variance in team wins if we know the number of cryx players on a team and that we can say with mild certain that more cryx players on a team had a small but positive relationship with a teams total wins.
The second model indicates that we can explain 21.4% of variance in team wins with we know both the number of cryx players on a team and the number of matches each player earned at the WTC. The unstandardized Bs for both Number of cryx players and Personal wins is fairly low at .320 and .335 respectively. So while these are both significant, they also both had a very small impact on the number of rounds a team won at the WTC. The Standardized B however is interesting in part because it indicates that changes number of cryx players on a team (ie going from 1 to 2) had a smaller impact on teams total wins than the changes in the number of matches an individual player won (ie going from 3 to 6).
However, Team wins while determining the final victor and each teams final rankings, thats not the only way to evaluate how well a team did. The other was However, when we look at the total number of individual matches a team won at the WTC, Cryx's impact on the WTC 2017 meta, is more noticeable.Just a basic regression between number of Cryx players on a team and a teams total wins , the R^2 is .106 at p<.000 BUT the unstandardized B is 1.982! this means that though we can only explain about 10% of total variance in team total match wins by knowing the number of cryx players on a team, we can say with some confidence that each cryx player on a team lead to nearly 2 additional match wins for the team as a whole over the course of the WTC.
Next I ran a stepwise regression modell. Stepwise models differ from normal "enter" models of linear regression in that they test for the individual impact of a set of variables on the model as a whole and add them in and potentially kick them out if they aren't significant contributors to the model. I set the probability of F for entry at .01 removal at .05 which is a bit below the most extreme standard but of entry at .001 and removal at .01 but good for which I analyzed how a Teams Total number of match wins a the WTC was impacted by a) the number cryx players on a team, b) a player playing cryx compared to any other faction, and c) each players individual win totals. Again collinearity was present but with VIF of 1.0 in model 1, 1.027 in Model 2, and 1.116, 1.133, and 1.225 in Model 3, all well below accepted levels of collinearity.
In the stepwise model, individual wins total had the largest impact on a team total wins with model1 R^2 of .248 and b of 1.25, or to put it another way each win for a given player is generally associated with rest of the team team getting another .25 wins. This isn't really surprising given that it only takes 3 match wins to win a match but there are 5 matches total. so a B of 2 would indicate that everyone time anyone won an individual match, two someone else on on their team won also. But given that 5-0s and 4-1s along with 3-2s, and of course their inverses, simply winning yourself doesn't mean that the rest of your team did. Standardized Beta is .498.
In the second stepwise model, the total number of cryx players on a team is introduced and increases R^2 to.309 (p<.000) with Individual wins having a B of 1.153/Beta of 4.98 and and Number cryx players having a B of 1.526 respectively. Whereas we talk about individual wins being associated with team wins (ie each individual win was associated with another .153 wins team wins but they did not cause it), the B for number of cryx players on a team is probably best expressed as each player playing cryx added 1.5 wins to the team.
Playing cryx return in the third stepwise model, we now explain 32.7% of the variance in team match wins. More importantly playing cryx becomes significant again (p<.000) but this time its B is -1.518, while the number cryx players on a team has a B of 1.79 while Personal Match Win Totals has B of 1.253
So what this means in while Personal Match wins has a significant effect on the total number of matches a team one at the WTC, the number of cryx players on a team had a larger effect. However, simply playing cryx had a negative impact on a teams total match wins.
However before you think this seems really contraindicated, its important to know why would simply playing cryx have a negative impact while having one or more cryx player on your team would be positive. Namely that since this is a team event, focusing only on Cryx players vs everyone else ignores the strategic aspects of matchup selection.But by examining the impact on your teams wins, your wins, and the sum of all your teams individual wins of through effect having a cryx player on your team, we can maybe get a glimpse at the strategic importance of having two players playing the same "question asking" faction on the same team.
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Post by GreatBigTree on Oct 4, 2017 4:56:04 GMT
The mark of genius is the ability to take something complex, and make it accessible to the common man. Throwing jargon around is good, and proves your ability to accurately crunch the numbers, but this does not provide an answer to the questions, Did playing Cryx give an individual an advantage to their win rates? Did this help their team to win the tournament? Is it reasonable to associate going 6-0 in the tournament, against reasonably skilled opponents, as having a more powerful army selection, even if it is only specific builds? Is it reasonable to associate Factions with overall poor showings as likely being weaker? While I appreciate the technical explanation, at this point I'm kind of looking for Yes / No answers, and a percentage advantage if practical. IE. Yes, individuals playing Cryx won 67 % of their games, which was 10 % higher than the next best individuals playing Faction X that had a 57% win rate. Compared to Faction Y, the hat had a 33% win rate, Cryx has an expected 2:1 advantage. That kind of summary is helpful to your fellow hobby enthusiasts.
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