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Post by Manathern on Sept 25, 2017 17:06:32 GMT
Given the recent interest and a lot of fun, I have been having with Interdiction lately, I was wondering if Kreoss 3 was worth it. More specifically, is Kr3oss still good without Vengers or do you really have to go with 2 units of max Vengers to get the most out of him. How does he fare out of them or in other themes?
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Sept 25, 2017 17:23:24 GMT
I personally think that Vengers need Kreoss 3 far more than he needs them. Saying that, speed seems to be everything in SR17, so Vengers are useful in EI just for that.
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Post by paradox on Sept 25, 2017 17:23:25 GMT
Kreoss3 isn't as great as he was in MK2 (RIP Warpath), but he's still really good instead of outright great. -He still has great personal power and threat range. -He's still a great enabler. -He still has a deep toolbox.
I think you can find lots of ways to play him, even without vengers.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Sept 26, 2017 16:00:34 GMT
Kreoss3 has been one of my two in tournament pairings since he was released. He is by far and away my favorite 'caster to play in the Protectorate. He can play into most themes, with Creator's Might likely being the weakest of his options. It's not terrible (Ignite, Assail, and Death Sentence helping out a bunch), but the list doesn't really do much for him.
He brings Arcane Ward and Ignite to Guardians of the Temple, boosting their already high average DEF (DEF 16 Flamebringers do not suck) and helping shore up the list's somewhat anemic hitting potential. Also, Death Sentence helps out the MAT 6 elements of the theme.
He turns the hitting power of Exemplar Interdiction up to 11, boosts their subpar DEF, and ensures you stick the hit against things like Warpwolves with Death Sentence. Plus, he supercharges Vengers, giving them a legit reason to be in the list.
Heck, he'll be pretty good into Faithful Masses just because of the deep kit he brings to any list. Let's also not forget that to any of these lists he brings a speed buff for 'jacks, a dispel for enemy upkeeps/animi (Feat), and a solid assassination vector that everyone has to watch out for (Force Hammer). And, when all else fails, he can neutralize the piece trade by deleting a heavy himself with Focus to spare. I had him solo a Siege Animantarax then tank two heavy Warbeasts for an entire turn (turns out DEF 16 is hard to hit when you're MAT 6).
Vengers need him far more than he needs them. They provide him a fast moving heavy wrecking force, sure, but if you can satisfy that list need in other ways, Kreoss3 can pretty much play into any list.
Edit and caveat: I play Kreoss3 outside of theme right now with double Vengers and Flamebringers. It works exceptionally well and has currently suffered 2 losses in Mk. III. While I definitely support running him with double Vengers, I firmly believe that it is not required to get high levels of performance out of him.
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Post by stelios on Sept 28, 2017 13:30:51 GMT
And is delivery a problem at all? He doesn't really do much to get them there safely except for that +2 DEF bonus.
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spideredd
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Post by spideredd on Sept 28, 2017 14:13:52 GMT
And is delivery a problem at all? He doesn't really do much to get them there safely except for that +2 DEF bonus. If it's in exemplar interdiction you get an extra 2" deployment. It actually helps Vengers a lot because you can get to the half-way line with a unit at the top of one if you actually want to go that far.
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Hashmal
Junior Strategist
Posts: 557
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Post by Hashmal on Sept 28, 2017 17:07:32 GMT
With a run of 16" off a standard 7" deployment zone, they're practically midfield top of 1 anyway. It really puts positioning pressure on your opponent - they want to stay out of the 13" charge threat but they have to advance.
Regarding delivery, I rely on other things. For example, a staple tactic of mine is to run Flamebringers 18" in front with Arcane Ward and Vengers 13-16" following, depending on terrain. I will then jam with the Flamebringers Turn 2 while setting up Vengers for high impact charges on Turn 3.It is hard for many armies to deal with DEF 16 Flamebringers that also can't be targeted by spells. And they have to deal with them, else risk Flamebringers scooting into their backfield and wrecking all support and potentially their 'caster.
With a 13" threat range, Vengers don't need much help for delivery. Their problem has always been their output relative to their points cost and fragility. Kreoss3 cranks their output up into the stratosphere, greatly mitigating the issues of casualties taken on the way in. It's hard to get more than three Vengers on a heavy target anyway unless someone severely overextended with it, so losing a Venger or two on the way in isn't actually all that bad (POW 16/18 with Divine Inspiration charging on three attacks does not suck).
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Fire Step
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Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
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Kreoss 3
Oct 16, 2017 10:17:22 GMT
via mobile
Post by Fire Step on Oct 16, 2017 10:17:22 GMT
Managed to pick up K3 and Gravus cheap recently, looking forward to them arriving and getting them on the table now.
I've put together a fairly "standard" list which I think will work as expected
War Room Army
Protectorate of Menoth - Intercessor Kreoss
Theme: Exemplar Interdiction 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Intercessor Kreoss - WJ: +28 - Fire of Salvation - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16) - Reckoner - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12)
High Exemplar Gravus - PC: 9 - High Exemplar Gravus (Continued) Wrack - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1 Exemplar Warder Elias Gade - PC: 0 Exemplar Errant Seneschal - PC: 0
Exemplar Vengers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20 Exemplar Vengers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Exemplar Errants - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Exemplar Errant Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0
THEME: Exemplar Interdiction ---
GENERATED : 10/16/2017 10:42:36 BUILD ID : 2050.17-09-10
The introduction of Elias is actually a big boon to the lists that I've been putting together. His bubble of pathfinder means I'm not relying on keeping Rhupert in tow (and missing out of four exemplar points as well!)
The only thing I'm not certain of is if the errants are speedy enough in the list, considering they only run about as fast as the vengers walk. I'll have to see how it plays on the table.
In terms of on-table positioning, any tips on the vengers? In my head I have a vision of vengers approaching on each wing, with the core of errants in the centre.
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blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
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Post by blakeh1 on Oct 17, 2017 23:08:31 GMT
Vengers absolutely must get the the charge off. Therefore timing and positioning is key for them.
Getting your opponent to trigger battle driven is typically a tricky affair involving setting up a no win choice for your opponent where they must take out at least 1 or 2 of them even of they can't get all of them.
You may not always be able to do so however
In the right scenario, if your opponent is reluctant to give you the Battle Driven bonus, you can try baiting them into doing so on a free-strike. The choice between letting you pass without free-striking, and losing an important solo or other key piece could be enough
Also remember, while the + 2 STR from battle does not apply to the mount, the +2 to damage rolls from ignite and additional die from divine inspiration do.
So don't be afraid/forget to use those mount attacks. Effective POW 14 impact attacks rolling 3 dice and dropping the lowest are nothing to sneeze at. Just be careful not to impact your own Vengers
Also, Kreoss' feat can be used to help you swap Ignite around to the second unit
I often find Kreoss 3 extremely FOC starved outside of feat turns without Vassals and the Hierophant and Wrack. He is typically upkeeping Assail, Ignite and Arcane Ward. That only leaves him with 4 FOC, at least 2 of which will probably go to Fire on key turns
Once they get stuck in they are pretty much dead so piece trade accordingly. The most you can hope for is ARM 19 with 5 wounds gives problem for infantry that might try finishing them, but for the most part, they drop quickly
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Post by djgibraltar on Oct 21, 2017 20:26:45 GMT
i just made almost the same list as you fire step. only difference is instead of reckoner and 2 wracks i put in rhupert anyways. they have pathfinder with Elias but Rhupert can either give them tough for tough no kd with gravus or concealment on top of ward for def 16 vs shooting on errants. i think he is probably worth the swap in. i put a sanctifier instead
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khobai
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Posts: 108
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Post by khobai on Oct 21, 2017 21:50:18 GMT
Kreoss3 is probably my favorite caster. I love how versatile he is and how he can switch gameplans on the fly. Not only can he assassinate himself but his kit lets him facilitate assassination with virtually any model in your army.
But Im still convinced taking Vengers with him is a huge trap. Especially two units of Vengers. And Gravus is the hugest trap of all.
I like to play Kreoss3 with a more traditional protectorate list with a solid mix of warjacks and foot infantry.
And a Sanctifier is a great include for him because it synergizes very strongly with assail and frees up his focus for spellcasting. A Reckoner synergizes equally well with assail and you get the versatility of its gun for ranged assassination. Sanctifier/Reckoner/FoS is a solid battlegroup for him.
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Provengreil
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Post by Provengreil on Oct 24, 2017 21:40:27 GMT
And is delivery a problem at all? He doesn't really do much to get them there safely except for that +2 DEF bonus. Even without pathfinder or charge buffs, I find the sheer move speed of vengers to be an adequate delivery system. 13 inch charge ranges are not to be dismissed.
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Fire Step
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Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
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Post by Fire Step on Oct 26, 2017 8:09:15 GMT
Played Kreoss 3 last night with the below list;
War Room Army
Protectorate of Menoth - Intercessor Kreoss
Theme: Exemplar Interdiction 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Intercessor Kreoss - WJ: +28 - Fire of Salvation - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16) - Reckoner - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12)
High Exemplar Gravus - PC: 9 - High Exemplar Gravus (Continued) Knights Exemplar Seneschal - PC: 0 Wrack - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1 Exemplar Errant Seneschal - PC: 0
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Exemplar Vengers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20 Exemplar Vengers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20 Exemplar Errants - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Exemplar Errant Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0
THEME: Exemplar Interdiction ---
GENERATED : 10/26/2017 07:23:05 BUILD ID : 2052.17-10-13
I played it twice into the pit2, winning twice.
First game, circle, Kaya 2. Circle player spent time setting up his key second turn and getting everything perfectly moved around the board, which gave me a lot of time allowance to clear the right rectangular zone, score it with kreoss, and set up a strong defence of vengers in the mid circle zone. The circle player did his weird feat shenanigan where all the warbeasts, no matter where they are, are teleported to within 3" of Kaya at the end of their activations. The game ended with me a point up on scenario.
Second game against cygnar, Stryker1. His army was slower than mine, so I fought him hard out the zones and grabbed 4 points in a turn. Kreoss' feat was more important in this game as I needed to cycle ignite from one vengers unit to the reckoner to crack open a centurion. Unfortunately because of terrain there wasn't a feasible way for my opponent to contest or score much, leading to a very sudden scenario victory for me.
Lessons learned:
Vengers aren't flame bringers- they don't have the same dancing utility or ability to harass. They operate almost like missiles.
Kreoss' feat is either going to make a bit of a difference or no difference. I feel like if he had some sort of melee helper as a feat, something like "models can make a second charge after their activations are complete" (as this would help the vengers with their low output, and synchronise nicely with Kreoss2 feat), it would be better than simply cycling spells and knocking off enemy upkeeps and animi. I probably shouldn't theorise after just two games though.
I'd like to swap out the Knights exemplar seneschal for Elias Gade, as I think it's probably (ish) better to be giving them pathfinder as kreoss doesn't have any speed or move buffs for infantry.
Overall, very fun, but certainly more games needed before I can talk with much certainty on it.
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blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
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Post by blakeh1 on Oct 26, 2017 14:11:43 GMT
Played Kreoss 3 last night with the below list; War Room Army Protectorate of Menoth - Intercessor Kreoss Theme: Exemplar Interdiction 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Intercessor Kreoss - WJ: +28 - Fire of Salvation - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 16) - Reckoner - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12) High Exemplar Gravus - PC: 9 - High Exemplar Gravus (Continued) Knights Exemplar Seneschal - PC: 0 Wrack - PC: 1 Wrack - PC: 1 Exemplar Errant Seneschal - PC: 0 Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4 Exemplar Vengers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20 Exemplar Vengers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20 Exemplar Errants - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Exemplar Errant Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0 THEME: Exemplar Interdiction --- ........ I'd like to swap out the Knights exemplar seneschal for Elias Gade, as I think it's probably (ish) better to be giving them pathfinder as kreoss doesn't have any speed or move buffs for infantry. Overall, very fun, but certainly more games needed before I can talk with much certainty on it. I would definitely swap out for Gade
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Post by Swampmist on Oct 26, 2017 16:44:44 GMT
imho the KE senny is 100% better for that list than the Errant Senny.
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